The Art of Reverent Irreverence: Alexus Rhone’s Unique Take on Faith and Storytelling

Hello everybody and welcome once again to the Unlearned Podcast. I'm your host, rebecca Gilles Smith, and we are in our series called Unlearning Religion, which is where I get to talk to dope people who have gone through experiences in different ways throughout religion, that have been unlearning things that maybe are no longer useful or that they need to refine over time. They have different experiences and sometimes have landed at different places, but they have all engaged the journey And so today I get a chance to talk to you. This is so cool. I got to say this is so cool because, if you all have listened to the series at all, there is a woman her name is Shannon Wright. If you haven't listened to that podcast recording, please, please, do it. She's one of those brilliant people I know and she has some great insight into that, So go check that out. But she connected me, reconnected me, with a friend of hers who I was introduced to as a teenager. She is a brilliant storyteller and, look, she was so good. She had me in church reading her books instead of the Bible. Now, i don't put that on her, that's on me, but that's how good her stuff was. I would have her books in the Bible and I would be reading it, and so we haven't talked to each other. I haven't seen you since I was 14, 15.

Absolutely Yep, Since she worked yep.

That's unbelievable. And so she has. She said, yeah sure, i'd love to do it. So she has some great insight, she has a great story, she is a storyteller. Her name is Alexis Rohn, so I want to introduce Alexis Rohn to the UNLEARP podcast. Welcome, ma'am.

Thank you so much, ruth Abigail. I am so excited about everyone Looking forward to this interview. This is not, i'm really happy this time. Even our pre, like our preliminary chat last week, i was like, oh wait, come on. What is it June? What's today, june 12th?

2013. Right.

I'm so excited.

I can't. I still, i'm still a little in shock that we've connected. So Alexis is truly a brilliant storyteller And I love how she described herself as a storyteller. Tell stories through writing through now screen and play stage writing, through podcasts and through all different types of mediums. But she is a storyteller And I would love for you to just kind of share a little bit of your background around that. Then we'll dive into the topic.

You know I am. I went to school my undergraduate degree is in journalism with a focus on public relations, and while I was studying public relations at UT University of Texas at Austin, i was never interested in working for an agency. Corporate PR would have been, you know, cool, but when I was sitting in the classroom and I was learning all of this content, it was really me understanding that there's no such thing as a general public and that there's specific publics and how to share messages for those niche publics That was. I was really, really curious about that, and more so, i wanted to know how to get and to promote specific messages, healthy messages, honorable messages to communities of folk who look like me. Black community That was black girls, it was black women, and so I have found that a lot of what I have done of late began way back then, when I didn't know that I could have permission, to you know, to tell stories about the sweetness of black girls and the compassion of black women and to tell those stories on diverse platforms Page Stage, green Web Radio and Podcasts, as you mentioned in my intro. And so I began telling stories. Black girls I began telling stories on page with a young adult series featuring a young character, trek Baton. She was introduced in premature pleasures and then went on to secret shame backstage bleachers a high school love story and then cover the coup. And all of the titles were intended to simply have reluctant readers pull that book off the shelf and then open it. That's me, that was me. It was like you listen, i wanted you to open it to any page.

I was like I got you, that's the that was me, because I want a reader And I want a reader like that, especially as a teenager. Exactly, and those books pulled me in, like they pulled me in man. So you, you did, your, you did your good work, you did your job.

But here's the thing for me, as an adult, what I realized is that I I too, when I was pre-teen was not a reader. I knew how to read, i just didn't like reading. But what I realized is that none of the books that were out there they didn't reflect me. There was no. They didn't look like me, they didn't talk like like there was no connection whatsoever. But then a sister friend introduced me to this book, um, Rainbow Jordan, by Alice Childress. I bless her name. Every time I think about what it was like for me and who it was that pulled me into the reading family And her book, rainbow Jordan. I read that cover to cover, and then I after that I read everything else that she wrote, and then I just became an avid reader. And so I grew up and I realized that you know, life, on life terms, is happening and a lot of the solutions are found in the book. So if you decided at a young age that you are not a reader, you missing, you still are. You're missing solutions. And so all I wanted to do as an adult was to say, hey, pumpkins, is some stuff that's coming, and I need for you to not be the person who says I don't read books. I need for you to cancel that whole script. So I'm just pulling you to the reading family. That's that's what I'm doing, like I'm going to give you some stuff, i'm going to give you the series And then, before you know it, you're going to be pulling other books off the shelves. So that was my mission, but it began there. Yes, mission accomplished.

You did it, you did it And you're doing it, and I am doing it Yes. You know, and I so. So you're a storyteller. You started on the page stage podcasts. You named another one. I'm. What am I missing?

A podcast, a stage page, stage screen, web radio and podcast.

Beautiful, i love that And in the midst of all of that, you being a storyteller, somehow you found your way to seminary. Yeah. So, how does that?

happen So well, here's the thing And everyone who you know read the Trek-Baiting series with premature pleasures. I mean it. You know the. The. The redemptive character in that story is a woman named Miss Denise. She is in her early 20s. She works at a church down the street from Trek's, from her apartment complex, and so she does a vacation Bible school and then a Jesus at the clubhouse, and all the kids love Miss Denise, but she is watching Trek trying to make that connection, and when she makes that connection you begin to see the power of one positive person who believes in a person that nobody else believes in, and how that makes a difference in their life. And so there was always a faith infused message throughout. But I think people become really uncomfortable when God is born in a manger and not in a palace Come on, god, that is, you know, with them stinking animals and not in a more hygienic space. God that is given these oils and not these gems. So there's a very interesting way in which we do our faith, in which we tell our faith narrative, and we always want to sanitize the spaces that God was like okay, no, no, no, i live in the ruins Like I'm with the least of these, like the prophetic hope was for those who are blind you won't be blind, okay, you will have, your sight will be recovered. Those who were lame you will walk again. Those who are deaf you will hear again. Those who you know the devil. So there is a way in which all of the we're looking at outcast, we're like, okay, god has no place there. God is with the sanitized and the clean folk And I always understood that. God is on the margins, always understood that. But I also recognize that when we're talking about margins, and particularly black people and black girls, there's a way in which you're like, okay, but not her.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

God is with him but not her, and I'm like I was her. I am her. So I knew that God was president. So I wanted to to tell these stories in a way that was not didactic. That wasn't because I understood that if I were to tell it didactic I couldn't tell it honestly. So let me just tell the truth. You know, as I see it, and I realized after the first I think I've got released I was writing, or maybe I just released, premature pleasures And I was in my first seminary at that point. It was a conservative seminary in Texas And CIS was not happy or properly aligned up in that space where they were like, okay, we don't see you as a woman, we don't think I see you as a woman. Like you know, we will give you your office and tell you what you can do And like, okay, now, y'all sure about that, i'm hearing it differently, but all right, i'm gonna let y'all do that. And I ended up leaving that seminary, finishing, you know, the rest of the book series and terminating a love project 12 year love project and moving to LA where there was a seminary fuller theological seminary had just started a new program as a theology in the arts program And then it just started at the Brem Center, and so there were some really interesting things that were happening at that point. And so you know I'm a creative and I write, you know, faith infused content, and so it wasn't like a didactic kind of thing, so it wasn't like Christian thought culture stuff, but it was faith infused. And I'm in this space in life where I need to push the reset button And so I went full time, relocated to Los Angeles, went full time, lived on campus, did all of the prayer retreats, like this, did all of the things as a full time student in seminary And it was one of the most beautiful life altering things like. There's so many things that happened there that make me an effective, reverently, irreverent, artistically elogen right, using my art to explore the presence or perceived absence of God in our live reality, and my art form is storytelling. So, yeah, that's a general view of all the things.

I love what you said about being reverently irreverent. I love that. I love that, i love that. So let's go back to young Alexis and kind of you were referring to. You were that girl. What? how was faith infused into your upbringing, into your journey? What would that look like?

Well, the traditional kind of experience, faith experience in the black community at least back then everybody belonged to a. You grew up in Texas. Texas in the South is very steeply religious And you're like you got a church brand, like what church you go to? Like that's a pretty common thing And you assume everybody go to church somewhere and for some reason. And so my mother and my brother Michael and I, just we were part of just community like missionary, bible, baptist churches and that sort of thing. My mother grew up in youth leadership in her church when she was coming up and then she goes off to college and there's a lot of hope and then she gets pregnant And then it's over, like she get pregnant at the Christian college.

They're like hi there, Hi there. Well, hey, hey, If mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Yeah, there's that. All right, all right, yeah, that's right. So she comes home, but, like you know, so that was always a very important part of my experience. But what was also an important, what was also part of not an important part, but just a real part was the shame based experience. It was all the ways in which there is a standard and the expectation that you honor that standard, and then the shame that's placed on you when you don't align with that standard, and so, and then, on top of that, there is the lack of a lexicon to be able to fight someone who tries to say that you or try to make you feel like you're the daughter of a lesser God. So all of that was a very pivotal part of why, of all of the things to you know, to get a master's in. I wanted to get a master's in theology because there were some things about our belief system, about how we see faith, about how we see God, that genuinely impacts how we show up in the world and how we allow others to show up in our lives, in our space, the kinds of things that we allow them to put on us, to say to us. You know, faith is a huge part. The church is a very important institution And the messages that we get there, if they are not nuanced, if they're not, you know, if they are tethered to something you know, else, when you don't see yourself, or if you feel like what they're talking about does not, you know, reflect you, it could be bad all around. So, for me, faith was Jesus, and shame on you. That's what it was, as you know, for me as a little girl. And so as I grew and as I began to just, you know, take the mic, you know, in my books and the stories that I told and the way that I ministered, it was okay, we ain't gonna do this. Shame on you. There's no such thing as fast. There's no like all of the labels that they specifically placed on black girls. It was like I'm dismantling all of that Now. We're not doing that. So that was kind of the way it was. How did you?

get there. Like, how did you? because you know, growing up in that, when that is what you know, it's what you've kind of just adopted, right? I mean, whether you want it to or not, you adopt that mentality. What moved you away from that?

Well, see, and I think and that's where the irreverent part comes in So I literally embraced reverent irreverence, because the reverent part of anyone says I'm going to allow you to define who I am and what's real and right for me. But if you're bold enough to be irreverent, you can say hard, pass, or I disagree, and let them feel whatever they feel about you, label you as disrespectful or whatever, and you're like okay, but all I said was like I won't accept that label, i will not accept that particular thing because I'm feeling something that doesn't feel good, i'm seeing something that don't look good, i'm watching your biases, i'm watching you not tell the whole truth, i'm watching you not honor the whole story, and I could act like I don't see what I see, or I could just see it Yeah, and then call it out. And so it was the courage to be irreverent, and the irreverence was to say okay, yeah, i know that this is what you think, i know that this is what you teach, i know how you make others feel, i know how you make me feel And I'm gonna say you out of order And this don't feel right, and I'm gonna just exercise agency and move in other spaces until I figure out exactly what it is that I need to hear, need to feel, need to see. Cause, i've already decided that, like what you like, like you want some bull, i can't go with this but it was my ability to honor my the irreverence. I get absolutely nothing by trying to get you to give me my gold stars, by honoring the standard That's so dishonorable and does not feel good.

Okay, so first of all, i'm grateful that you have embraced this irreverence, because there's so many, there's so many people that can't do it right, that just don't have whatever. it is that's in you that has allowed that, whatever that is allowed you to push past that. so many people don't have it And then and need someone to almost give permission, i think to be irreverent.

Exactly You know what I mean Somebody gotta be out there doing this.

I'm grateful for that. But secondly, there are a lot of people who irreverence often turns into irrelevant, It doesn't matter, Like it's just. You know, there's an irreverence that is disconnected, Like I'm throwing it away. I don't wanna have anything to do with the church, with God, with Christianity, with whatever, with Jesus whatever. Because I see wrong and I'm calling it out and because I see it, I'm connecting it to the God that is associated with you and I'm no longer with that God.

But for whatever reason, you saw it, but you didn't disconnect, yeah so, but here's the thing The issue that I think I first addressed was that you don't get to decide that you get to possess God and I have to go find something else. I gotta go figure out how to tether my life. So that's the first thing. So that's what I was kicking against. I was like, okay, we can disagree, you can decide that the standard for me as it has been for all women you know, since the, you know whatever is to, you know, do X, y, z, and I can tell you that this does not feel good. But what I never allowed was for you to be the one to, because that's what the frame of the fight for me was. It was never about you as much as the way that you were trying to frame who God is the earth, and particularly for me. And so you have taken on a whole lot of power. Yeah, and I get that. With that power comes, you know, like I don't know coins, respect, you know adoration, you know whatever, but I just like I don't, i disagree, like you don't, you don't own that, and you would never be so bold as to say, well, yes, like you know, i like what I like, god is with me And so I didn't have anybody saying that. But what I, what I found, was that they, there was this there's this isolation that happens Here. It is When you don't line up with the standard, with the status quo, with the subculture, there's an icing out that happens. And so when you talked about, when you said earlier that people leave God, it really is the. They have made God and fellowship kind of one and the same And assume that if I like this fellowship, this group does not feel good And so I'm going to move in different spaces if they decide that, like, god is over here and and nowhere else, right, and that that's problematic. So that was, that was the. That was the first fight that I was taking. But the other thing is that I embraced mystery And I I realized that that was a big, that would be a big deal. When I ended up at a dinner where the the topic of the discussion was his religion, the new opium of the people, i did not realize that this dinner for 20 people was basically atheist agnostics having this conversation, like they had listed it on this website, meetupcom, and so I was just looking for some people who like to do what I do like drink wine, you know, read books, have conversation, and you know I was like maybe, you know, being somebody's nice house, like maybe a loft, right. So when I entered those factors, i came up with this group, dinner, wine, conversation and loft and this topic. And so I'm like yo, these are my people, and I show up and it ends up being and I can't say it's a community of atheists and agnostics. I think that's just kind of where they landed. They were really a community of folk who drank wine and and did a lot of, you know, deep reading, and and so did I, and so. But when it was time for us to introduce ourselves was when to locate ourselves concerning religion. That was when I learned, you know, who this group was, and so I was at first really nervous as I began to hear them introduce themselves as atheists and agnostic, and I was really concerned about how they would react to me as a Christian Right, if they would assume that they already know how I vote, they know what music I listen to, they know what I do on a Friday night, like they just, they know my life and therefore they don't need to listen to me. And to not listen to me will be a really big problem for them, and all of my guardian angels knew that. Like I went into seminary with three really good repentance prayers and I came out with eight, i am really really good with repentance, which means I am doing whatever it is that I'm going to do. But what we're not going to do is like when I'm going to let you have your say and then you think you're not going to let me have mine. So I was really really anxious for them. But when it came time for me, i really was. But when it came time for me to introduce myself for the very first time, i said I am Alexis Rohn, or not just to give my last name. I said I am Alexis. I am a person of faith for whom God is particularizing the person of Jesus Christ. I embrace mystery and the answer, i believe a lot of times with the most integrity, is I don't know. With that introduction I was able to. They were able to hear me because I had basically located all of us in the space of I don't know And I feel like, with a reverent stance, it is that you know that, you know that, you know that you know. But the truth is, the scriptures even bear witness that we see is to a glass dimly lit. So God has full sight, but we see is to a glass dimly lit. And so the idea that, whatever it is, that we know, that somehow we can't unknown, or somehow somebody else knows more than we know, that that never set well with me. But what I began to just embrace is the mystery seeing through that glass dimly lit and walking confidently, not in the. This is what I know. Hey, i don't know. You asked me what it? I don't know. And then being gracious and loving enough to hear other people's I don't know, and then being cautiously aware of people who insist that they do know, so that all of that you know has helped me, you know, to show up confidently in that reverent irreverence space.

What So I have kind of two questions I'm curious as to, in that particular conversation with that group of people, yeah, what were some of the common I don't know that you all had, if that was there.

Well. So here was the thing. Again, they were a well-read group, as was I, but they also were mostly white, although the owner of the loft was a black guy. He was. We were 20 of us, and we broke up into two groups of 10. And so there were points of history that they put to religion that I was able to say I'm family, that's all about money, right, so. But again, i'm well read too, so we were able to talk about that. But when it came to the mysterious parts, it was really about near death experiences, sickness, watching loved ones transition, The, the pain that we felt, the, the peace that comes in that space. It was, it was those kinds of things that they were like. This mysterious thing has happened. It does not. There is no book or anything that I have that can give me an explanation for what this thing is. It's mysterious That, what. There was a lot of that, and it would be years later, ruth Abigail, that I would, i would, i would think about because that that that meeting was a very formative meeting. I like I, and I continue to fellowship with them the rest of my time in seminary, even six months after I graduated, i continued like we would have regular, like every six weeks or whatever. We get together with a different topic over dinner and wine, right, and this guy's lost, and so the topics were changed. But this is like I was. I came in on the salon where the discussion was is religion the new people? It never occurred to me until years later that here were a group of folk who didn't believe in God, didn't question God. But what was fascinating for me was that that conversation was not a mocking of God, and I don't believe that it was because they were trying to quote be sensitive to me where? I was like I'm not going to be a good person Because they were trying to quote, be sensitive to me, recognizing that I did not, that I did not identify as an atheist or an agnostic. I was a person for whom God is particularizing the person of Jesus Christ. I didn't say Christian because in their mind, christians, you know, you know, vote for Republicans and you know, on a Friday night, you know, there's the, the Bible study, and for me, like you know, the Friday night I was at, you know, the old school hip hop and R&B skate night, you know, and she know heels, or I was at the, you know, jazz at sunset. So I had a very different experience that did not align with who they, you know, with what they thought Christians were, and I also did not fit within Christian subculture. So all of the things that they were describing were really a Christian subculture thing And I was a person for whom God is particularizing the person of Jesus Christ. I followed Jesus, but they weren't being sensitive to me. I think that I was in the group, not silent. I was, like you know, equal partner, and we were able to posit questions. I was not even there to proselytize Right, like I wasn't trying to, you know, win them, you know, you know to the kingdom. Yeah, i just want to drink wine and have conversations, so in a really cool loft, and this was a conversation that we were having- but, it wasn't, they weren't mocking, they weren't mocking. And years later there was a. You know, i just remember thinking like, of all of the topics that they could have picked, why that one? Yeah, yeah. So that's, that's mystery, and that is what, you know, god looks like, i think, when we're all the time trying to assume that we know as much as God and that we are controlling as much. I have found a greater, i find greater joy and hilarity in, you know, god's placefulness. You know, having me get sick of the Christians and dropped me dead square in the middle of a group of atheists and agnostics. You know, on nature, yeah, That's that.

But you know what, though? that's what I find beautiful about that And I've actually had similar experiences with people who would identify the atheists or agnostic Is that there's often a reverence to the unknown. Yeah, a lot of Christians don't have, to your point, a reverence, because there's a, there's a fear of a healthy fear of that which we don't understand, that that a lot of folks who are who, who would call themselves Christians, to your point, have a hard time admitting to. I don't know, i don't understand, and so if we don't do that often, i think it's an, that's an arrogance, but what's right, and so there's an arrogance to that that, ironically, a lot of people who do not identify as Jesus follow his Christians don't have. It is, it is. It is a very interesting. It is a very interesting. It is a very interesting thing to kind of to watch and to and to compare, because I think that there's a lot of things about this is just my opinion. I think there's a lot of things about God that people who don't acknowledge God actually know more about than even even people that do. They may not admit it or they may not, you know, have language for it, or the language may sound different, right, yeah, right, but truly there's, like there's an understanding, even in the. I don't understand. That is a level of understanding that I think a lot of Christians are unwilling to engage.

You know, and you know, even with that same group, though. So there was this one guy who was in. He identified as an anti-theist, and so he would regularly come from me, because an anti-theist believes that everything that's wrong with the world is because of the fairy in the sky that we call God, and so an anti-theist actively works to dismantle God from the, from the public sphere, right, and so, although my my responses or anything about it, like it wasn't didactic and it wasn't my pastor said this or the Bible says this because they didn't value my past or the Bible. So, like neither one, like that would not be a credible way for me to to show up and to make a point. So that was not whatever, but even with all of the credibility that I had with the rest of the group, you know, just know him knowing that I was a person of faith, just really kind of stuck at him, and so he would always try to come from me. And I'm like pumpkin, i know three good repentance prayers, and by the time I'm done with seminary, i'm going to walk out of campus with eight men. God going to be good Men. You might not be, i promise you. I know, i know how to do this stuff And I'm like, okay, god, like forgive me, yeah, i know how to do that, okay, please, yeah, like, do not like listen, i'm Alexis Grace. I'm Alexis from Texas, but I'm going to let you pick. Whoever you pick, you know, alexis Grace is, you know, is loving and gracious. Alexis from Texas, repentance, a whole lot more. Both of them love Jesus, come on. But I'm going to let you pick, but like whoever, whoever it is, that you, whoever it's, whoever you choose, that's like, that's, you know, that's what you're going to get. So he was the one who would regularly, you know, try to, you know, to get me there. But I'm like, you know, pumpkin, i'm drinking wine and I'm in this beautiful space, i'm actually good, but I would let him, you know, have a say than not have mine, and we would just kind of go back and forth. So this was a regular thing at like kind of all of the meetings And I'm my third or fourth time there Whatever was the conversation, whatever thing was done when the salon was done, we're all just kind of hanging out in the loft And he and I were standing in front of a red abstract painting. Both of us have a glass of wine in our hand. And by now he has gotten to know me through my responses and the way that I've shown up on a variety of topics, and the thing that just really baffled him was why do you believe this stuff? Like in his mind. He's like okay, you are brilliant. Okay, like bet, like that's like pardon. Like like you're brilliant, except, like you, you have this, this religious stuff, and I don't understand how a brilliant person can believe that. And so I said well, do you believe in epigenetics? I asked him And he said well, of course I do that science. I was like okay, well, you know that epigenetics is the study of how trauma is passed through DNA. He's like correct, i was like so I am the descendants of formerly enslaved people. The trauma that they experienced lives in my DNA. I inherited that, right? So now you may not be the descendant of former slaveholders, but you are a beneficiary of all of that bullshit, right? Can we agree that? he's like yeah, that's true. I was like so if I am the descendant of formerly enslaved people and I carry the trauma of that institution in my DNA, the owner of the sloughed former, like the descendant of former enslaved people, cares at DNA, cares at trauma in his DNA. Answer this for me. Why haven't he and I conspired to whoop your ass just on behalf of the ancestors? Wow, like, why haven't we done that? In fact, you don't even fear it. Why is that? And he thought about it for a minute and he said I don't know. And then I said if you cannot say thank you God, then say thank you mystery. He lifted his glass, i lifted my glass, we clicked, we sipped and then we began to discuss that red abstract painting. That was such a profound conversation for me because, number one, i didn't have to be this reverent person talking about all of the things that God has done for me. I'm like, look here, let me break down what God has done for you so that it will forever and consistently be broke down. If you cannot say thank you Lord, say thank you mystery. He got it, he fully got it. Now there are other folk who would completely miss that, but that was what being in that group meant for me And that's what it meant for me to completely lean in to my reverent irreverence. For me to lean in to like listen to the answer a lot of times with the most integrity is. I don't know The first time I introduced myself that way. I did not have that scripted. All I know is that I have been listening to all of these other folk go around here claiming to be atheists and agnostic And I was trying to give them a language that would allow them to hear me and for me not to have to repent for whatever I would need to do that night if they didn't listen. So I'm watching all of these things happen and I'm simply just living mindful and in the moment, not in any way demeaning him or making room for him to demean me, but just trying to frame it for him in a way that he could hear. And it wasn't about what God has done for me, it was about what God has done for you, fam, and you don't even know. All of that I know. Okay, listen, we tried to one. listen. I tried to warn you.

I tried to, So we're going to just we just if we're going to do, because we, i can't rush past that, i can't, i can't rush past that because that whole thing just gave me chills, that whole story. I'm sitting here with chills down my arms. That is such a profound way to engage.

There's a filmmaker who's actually creating a short around that. She heard me tell that story at one of my Jesus, jazz and Dessert one faith and adult storytelling series And she was like, oh listen, that captivated all the things in me.

So, yeah, so we're working on some stuff, well good, i want to make sure to definitely watch that and tell all the people that is. Yeah, i'll keep you posted on that That is beautiful. It's here's what I saw. I want you to help the people, alexis, i need to. Okay because, because, because you grew up in church, you grew up with this, like you said, the traditional for a lot of particularly the black community, church experience. You're familiar with that. I love that, jesus, and shame on you, because I think that is truly a common experience amongst all communities. I mean that is a very especially in the south, yeah, but but the way you engage this dude, yeah, i don't know many people who have that background who could do that. I really don't help, help, help people who would love to submit. I would love to be, to be able to engage, but I don't know how to. I don't know how to kind of flip the script or or not not be, not be didactic or not kind of. you know, repeat what I've heard. What is the process to getting to that point? Obviously it's not. it's not just something. you just reading a pamphlet. I mean, i'm not, i'm not asking you to do that, but but just help people to try to figure out at least how do I start down that journey of getting there.

So remember that the first that what led me to this group was that I was looking for people who liked what I liked and wanted to engage with what I wanted to engage with, and that was simply wine. I wanted some wine drinkers. I wanted some people who read and stuff that they read. They had interesting conversations based on what they read and not what they heard. So that was books, that was research journals, that was, you know, articles that you know. There were all of these different things And people who wanted to have dinner and like a conversation about these things, and you know this really cool, uber chic, you know loft in LA. So like those were the. That was. That was the common draw. So you know, i want to be very clear that I was not out, you know, looking to check. You know white, white people like that was not what it was. I had went in search of a tribe of folk who liked the same things that I did and we got together and we did those things. So that was the first things, that was the first thing. I wanted you to know, that that was that. That was the commonality, right. But in terms of that actual experience, i want to share with you one of my formative biblical narratives Ezekiel 2, verses three through 15. It's called the calling, the calling commission of Ezekiel. In this calling First verse of chapter two, god says stand up, stand up, son of man, i got something to tell you. Scripture says that he came into Ezekiel, stood him up on his feet and then God begins to break down for Ezekiel, like I'm sending you to these folk, they they not gonna listen. You know they. You know they, they. You know they, they're they're. You know they're they look prickly. You know they are prickly, they are they. You know they're menacing. They're all the things I try to tell them. They don't listen to me. I'm sending you to tell me, probably not gonna listen to you too, but I want you to go. And God was like and don't be afraid, don't be afraid. Just like, do what I tell you Superstitutes. Because I got gave me the scroll. Scroll had a pronouncements of doomed and funeral songs on both sides. But he ate the scroll and it was sweet in his mouth. And then God says I'm not sending you to people that you know or that you don't know, because if you've seen it in them, they would listen, even their language. But they will listen to you. I'm sending you to people who are hardheaded and obstinate. And then God says but look, i have made you hardheaded and obstinate, just like them. In fact, i've made your head harder than the hardest rock. Now go and tell them what I told you. And then God says but first let my word sink down deep into your own heart first, and then go Tell them what I said. Ezekiel then gets caught up in this big spiritual experience And then he says, in turmoil and bitterness I went, but the Lord told on me was strong. He says and then I got to the Kibar River with Judean exiles. I am exhausted And I sat there for seven days. Now, in that whole curriculum, i love that God is not setting a standard, that for Ezekiel to represent, for, for for God to go in to say what God says. God is not saying OK, i need for you to be an angel, i need you to be a superhero. God is like OK, look, you see how they are. You came up in that same community. You like them. In fact, i've made you harder than them, ok, so I'm not telling you to be different. I'm like I know what it is that you're going into. I'm telling you to listen to what I've told you, let what I've said sink down deep into your own heart first and then go. So, said all that, to say this When I showed up in that meeting, i was a person who had done a lot of the listening and what do I believe first, and having a really clear and firm understanding of what resonated most deeply with me, i recognize that, although I am going into deep debt for this experience at this, for this training at seminary, i love the campus prayer retreats. I go to all of them. I love the special programs, the film screenings with the filmmakers coming from all over the world for all kinds of topics, the colloquies that we were having on campus, the student creative showcases, like all of these different things. It's very interesting and creative programming that was happening on campus. And still, i recognize that I'm in one of the most exciting cities on the planet And they got one of the goofiest rules on this campus with all adults on it You can't drink. Okay, what I mean? I can't be on here for, like you know, look, okay, i'm on your standard. I'm just have to leave y'all, like you know, because I drink wine and I want to go and I want to be with people who don't have goofy rules. I say, even though you over 21,. You can't drink because you know Jesus, you know like, you know like whatever is there, you know their thing. So I was. So I loved the training, i loved when I was in the classroom, i loved all of it. I did not love the social experience because I was so very, very, very different from all of them And it was me recognizing that I have no interest in pouring myself into Christian subculture. I think it's goofy, some would go with hard pass And so, even though I thought God was extremely playful putting me in the midst of this community and they space, you know, with atheists and agnostic, i also believe that God was like I know you, you got this, you good. Yeah, like this one right here. Okay now this is Taylor. This is where I need you training, right, this is where I need, like, this is your, your, your leadership formation is happening in this space, because I had no interest in being and I did not feel called to pulpit ministry. I'm like I'm going to the world, so I need to know all the different types of people like you know, like what? what does that look like? to go, you know, be in that space, but for me to not center who they are, but for me to say, okay, listen, here is what we have in common, and to show up confidently in that And also to tell the truth about what it is that I don't know, and I don't even know what I know until you continue to come for me and I continue to try not to cost you out, because I'm tired of repenting like I have given the enemy of my faith. Enough W's in the in that wins. You know, I'm saying I've given like no my right, no my. So what do I do? to show up and to give glory to God and to piss off the enemy at the same time, man come on. There's something about the way that I need to value who they are and how I need to show up, not as this angel or as a superhero and as a super Christian, but simply as the person who was like, okay, look, the book should read out in random to plus some. Okay, the way that you have I got questions. To the way that you know I know what I know, to the way that you are a white man who's come. I'm a black woman and here is my perspective. So it's like it's, you know, it's God saying okay, look, i made you your hand hard as the hardest rock. You obstinate to know you're not like, you're not cute and sweet, and you know like. You know, like that's not you obstinate because I made you that way. I made you that way, i made you that way for what I've called you to do and for the spaces you're going to show up in, and so you know. So it's so, it's all of that. And I feel like, if the church is looking for, or people of faith, if they're looking for a way to codify the experience, that I believe is the, the empire's way of trying to get us to not trust who God has made us to be and then to trust that perhaps God would never put you in that space. But God, because God is like okay, i don't want you to shrink, i need you to go shine. Yeah, lex is gonna shine in that space. Yeah, because she read all the books and you know, and she drink wine. She got a problem with that wine. Right, people, jesus, for like that miracle. It's like she looking for that good wine.

Come on, jesus, let's go. Let's go, the best one.

Like you know, that's what you did, like just gave him the best one. So you know, but God understood, like I know her, it's like, yeah, she, you know she, she like she can handle this, like this is good for her in ways that she don't even know. And so I feel, like for people who I, just you know, trust God, i believe that that that God will definitely set us up in those spaces.

Yeah, that's good, That's good, man. I'm gonna oversimplify what you just said. What I heard you say is step one know. You know who you are. You connected because you know who you are You love reading and wine and conversation. This they did and I'm going there.

And then idealic spaces, all of that Like and you know you embrace that, do you?

the second thing And I think this is so important And I think a lot of us miss this step is get to know God, like really spend time understanding who God is, what, like on all the elements that surround that, and you don't have to go to seminary to do that, like you know, you don't have to do that, but you spent time getting to understand the God that you serve for yourself.

Yes, Right, Yes, And I. But I understood I was asking questions about the kinds of things that I had questions about, And so I recognize that my questions don't have to look like your questions. So when I am doing my divine hours prayer walk, I do a sunrise prayer walk out my prayer garden is North Carolina Museum of Art. You know, right before the sun comes up I'm out there and I'm real gracious I share my garden with you know, the rest of North Carolina, You know I'm sweet that way, you're very kind, you're very kind, but I got to be out there early before everybody else start coming in, because I pray out loud and I'm like I'm doing all the things. But before I say anything I listen to the bird symphony and I watch how I am a part of what God created And I watch how this part of creation never questions what God is doing. There is like this complete and utter dependence on God's systems. When the leaves get crunchy and then they fall off and I find it, they grow back because that's the system right, the shade, the way that the land, it looks barren and then it, you know, the rain comes and then it's full again. So there's this cycle and this the Psalmist writes you know, the works of your hands are God's glorious. God's creation is full of glory. God's righteousness endures forever. The works of your hands, the Lord of Faith and the sin justice, all your commandments are sure. They stand fast forever, never for their done in truth and equity. There's something about the way God creates that, these systems that are just, they flow. And so I go out before the sun comes up to witness and to just experience that entire deal before I utter one word of prayer. I'm listening to the bird's symphony and I'm just walking through and I'm marveling. I'm marveling at how the light shines into the forested area. I'm watching, like just all of this, like it's just an amazing experience for me. Now, other people would wrap asleep early morning, or some folks have allergies, or they have all of these different things, and so for them, perhaps the witness for you know, knowing God is in their Bible study. Okay, there was a time when a Bible study was good for me. Where I am right now is watching the cycles of nature, trust God wholly, and me having to make a choice every day. Okay, god, will I do the same, like you're the only one with full sight? I see a suer glass dimly lit. Will I do the same? That is my process for knowing God in this current season. Yes, i'm a daily Bible reader because I'm very much in love with the prophetic texts. Walter Bruegelman's prophetic imagination is like a standard goal to be able to do, a standard goal to for me, but also Audre Lorde's sister, outsider her collection of essays. So I put that on right now and wounded healer. And I'm also Lorraine Hansberry. As a black female creative, i'm reading and divide. Well, i reread and I reread the highlighted parts of Amani Perry's book Looking for Lorraine. So that is me as a black woman, as a black creative, as a person from God, as particularizing the person of Jesus Christ, as a person who recognizes God and God's creation. What are the elements teaching me about God that gets missed. If the only thing you can do is have me dissect Paul's letters, there is some wealth of like how women are dismissed. There's a way in which I read the book of Esther now that I have a completely different frame for what happened with Esther than I did when I was being directed for that experience. Women, young women, powerful men and sexuality. It is a thing So other folks might not have. They probably don't care too much about their birth symphony or about sexuality or power dynamics. That is what I am. So those are the aspects of God that I believe. When God told Ezekiel, like what goes deep down into your own heart, cause it's not all of it equally, but there are some things that are gonna settle down deep with you. So what is that? So that's the part of God that I focus on. What is it that resonated with me as a girl who heard more shame on you than Jesus loved you. In the same context, what is it that I want to carry? What is it that I want to dismantle for other black girls and for other black women who are carrying that shame on you, as opposed to that Jesus loves you, right? So that's yeah, so everybody. So I believe God is like just too big for us to all know. But I think you like what are the questions that you have? Okay, go with that. Start there like spend time there.

And don't be afraid to ask them. Absolutely, absolutely, don't be afraid to ask them. There's so many questions. I feel like a lot of people are just truly afraid to admit that they have, and unfortunately, we've got people who have curated easy answers to some of these questions Exactly Right, yeah, but they're not. they're still not, and it's full, they're not complete, they're not real answers, and so I love that man. So I need to say this. I need to, i want us to go in this direction, because so I do a segment called Freedom Fridays, which is where I just share something I've unlearned this week, or me, and one of my friends do it, and I referenced our conversation, our pre-conversation, at this last, this past Friday, because something really stuck with me And I would love for you to unpack it a little bit from your perspective and kind of how you approach it. It's this embracing our Christian cousins, who are not the easiest to embrace, and, at least from me, not people. I want to be a part of the family, right? But, man, you convicted me in it And I didn't even know I was convicted until I sat down behind the microphone. I was like, oh shoot, like that really got me. It really did, and I just so y'all. For those of you who have heard that episode, this is the woman who brought that to my attention And then I shared. I think it was actually later that day, kerr Franklin had had something on Instagram where he was talking about Christians canceling each other, right, or Christians participating in the cancel culture. But this idea of embracing people within the family that you just vehemently disagree with and just would not want to be associated with, except that, well, i don't really have an option, right? I mean, they claim to be in the same family as I do. I don't have a right to cast them out. So what do I do with that? So I think you know I just love for you to share kind of your, because you're so clear on who you are and what you're not going to accept for you. But you don't require that other people agree with you in order to embrace them.

Absolutely not, absolutely not, and I think that you know, again, one of the things that I had to unlearn and one of the ways that that lesson was easier for me was again just through my irreverent space is recognizing that you know, we call each other brother and sister and our non-binary family, you know, are giving us, you know, in this context, a new lexicon. And but one of the other things that I have done is like okay, you know, like a family has cousins, cousins, my mares, distance cousins, you know, step cousins, you know whatever. So that has been my frame. When someone is like you know, like you know brother and sister, is like there's like this greater commonality, okay, but them cousins, you be like okay, look, you know we family, but you know, you know, by marriage or Right right, right, right, right. But here's one of the things that I here's one of the things that has helped me with how to handle that, and I mentioned earlier about how I have. you know, i know how to repent. I literally went to seminary with three really good repentance prayers And then I left with eight really good repentance prayers, because I have operated like. I've operated at times and spaces where I'm like okay, god, you know what, i can't do nothing about them, people in Cambodia, but the situation right here, i can handle this in 10 minutes. So I'm gonna go ahead and just take care of this And then like, if you can handle people in Cambodia, then I feel like like everything, everybody's operating within their gifts, right, and so I don't like made a like whole big mess because I had decided that, like the bottom of this thing, i decided to care of it 10 minutes. like you know, 10 years later, we're trying to dismantle it. I'm saying this like so I recognize that in all of the ways that I'm like okay, look, i know how to repent. I got some repentance prayers in my back pocket. I'm gonna be good Me and Jesus is gonna be just fine. What I have done in those spaces, when operating in that way, is really given the enemy a bunch of W's for the enemy's wins column. And one of the most effective ways that the enemy is able to keep chaos and disarray in the body of Christ with God's family is with us deciding that you know we cancel each other. We, you know we don't do blah, blah, blah And I'm not even. I feel like if you are getting to the point where you're being canceled or something like that, then there's like a genuine, there's a real injury, like something real has happened. So I don't want us to be like we just gotta be going around here, you know, taking all you know, but all these different things happen. But here's what happened to me When I was in seminary. I had a situation that I was about ready to get my hands dirty. It was a lot that was going on And I went to my neighbor her name was Kristen And she was studying to be think she was a marriage and family therapist, like marriage and family therapy curriculum in the school of psychology at Fuller. I was in the school of theology, so she was my neighbor down the hall. I go to her door, knock on it. She opens it. I don't even check to see if she's busy or just immediately just kind of bum rush her unit And I I'm pacing and I'm pissing, you know, and I tell her everything that's happened And then I take a seat on the Poppa Son chair and I was like, like I'm about to get my hands dirty, chris, about to get my hands dirty And she's cracking up laughing because I'm doing my whole body, girl, like, i'm like using like adult language. I am like for real, i'm with the business at this point. So Kristen starts brewing some tea and she's cracking up laughing at me, she's listening And when I'm done and I'm just kind of, you know, sitting there, she pours me the tea, she takes a seat on the opposite Poppa Son chair And she says what would it look like for you to turn this experience into a worshipful experience to God and piss off the devil at the same time? Like what would that look like? And I stopped, wow, cause I love that question And I'm like like I don't know what does that look like?

And she was like I don't know either.

Go like, go ask God.

I'm like, give me no, like prayer sign, like.

I'm like I am what, what the devil Kristen Like like please? And she's cracking them laughing. She's like Lex, I don't know, go like, just just just take, you know, just go pray about it. So I literally began to stop thinking about that situation and really starting to process that question. What would it look like for me to take to, to, to take a course of action that would be a worshipful experience to God and would piss off the devil at the same time? It was like one action to really good, to good outcomes, one action to outcomes. Great outcomes. And I go to bed with that on my heart, go to sleep, wake up early the next morning, so my heart go to the prayer garden And I'm sitting there like on campus prayer garden And I'm in this little, this little cave area. It was really pretty. So it's early morning And I'm like got, what is the course of action that I take that turns this experience into a worshipful moment for you? And it pisses off the devil at the same time. Like what is that action? And then it hit me Eunji, how are you, cadaim? Pray for your enemy. Now, who is your enemy? Your enemy is the person who actively works for or privately rules for your demise. And so I had this person in my mind and I began to pray for them. And then I began to think of the other folks and I prayed for them And suddenly it hit me, by me being ready to get my hands dirty, the enemy already got the marker on the W's column in the winds column. Like wait, wait, i got another one, i got another one. I disrupted that entire kingdom on that day. Come on, pray for your enemy. Pray for your enemy. Pray for your enemy. Pray for your enemy. Pray for your enemy, pray for your enemy, pray for your enemy, pray for your enemies. And not in this like sort of dismissive way, but in a way that says I could go and get my hands dirty And I'm already loaded with the repentance prayer. I mean, jesus is going to be fine, but I have the opportunity to take a course of action that brings it's a worshipful moment to God and it pisses off the devil. And that was the course of action that I chose, intentionally chose to take And I recognize that cousins don't get, you know us as riled up as I was in that moment. But I had a directive. I could have gone off and I could have prayed my repentance prayer or I could have done that thing that I did and that was simply to just bless them, just bless them. I was like, okay, i'm going to be disruptive today. Look, you know what I mean. You're not getting no more W's from me, that's right. You've gotten enough, i've given you enough, wow. And so I take that frame. God, creator of all, god loves all. God goes ahead of all. God is like I see, the strong one ceases. God who you know? who? Adonai Lohim, our sovereign creator, god of infinite wisdom and a supreme love, god that cannot make a mistake, god that cannot make a mistake, god whose love never fails. That one right Casting my lots there. Think okay, look, i got a series of. I got a lot of different ways I can move. I'm choosing this one, i'm choosing this one. But am I choosing that one? It is because I've already watched the sparrows. I've watched what the cardinals do. I've watched what the indigo bunnies do. I've watched what the trees do. I've watched you know how they don't resist. You know when they leave, you know get crunchy and fall. They're not in protest Like they're coming back. I watched what happens when it rains, how it's thin and then the rain comes and then it just begins to fill up. I've watched these cycles and I have decided that I can trust the God that moves with such intentionality. So I don't have to be out here. You know being disruptive and giving the enemy any more W's for that wins column. Because I'm, you know, mad at the cousins because they're not acting like brothers and sisters.

Let me say this, if nobody else listens to this you blessed your girl today. See, see, look, i do these. I don't do these for nobody else, it's for me. This has been man. This has been such an enriching conversation. You have a beautiful I just I love the way you're. You have a beautiful mind and a beautiful soul and I am such a unique and such a unique and effective way of communicating Man. You were in your right seat. I love it. You were in, you know it, And that's what's so refreshing. Before we end, can you tell folks where they can find your work and how they can follow you and keep up with you?

Yeah, so okay. So I do maintain I have a social media presence. I'm back on Facebook and Instagram. My accounts were hacked a couple of years ago and then I got chin checked, you know, last month. As I look. You just need to get over yourself and rebuild your page. So I am back on, like the major platforms, i'm also. So it's Alexis I think it's Alexis Mains-Rone on Facebook and Alexis Rone Raleigh and underscore Raleigh and see on Instagram. You can also find everything that I'm doing on my website, alexisronecom. I'm on YouTube. A lot of these stories and the series and things that I produced Jesus, jazz and Dessert Wine. You'll find those uploaded on my YouTube channel again at AlexisRone A-L-E-X-U-S-R-H-O-N-E And Twitter, linkedin. So I'm in all the spaces. But I've really been promoting AlexisRonecom because that's the one that I keep up with. If you sign up for my e-newsletter, i do about two to four a month for sure, for New Moon and Full Moon Reflections. That's a time that I just kind of stop to just kind of take stock and write something, encourage folks, whatever. But I would also like to promote that my latest script, my latest stage production, has been accepted into the National Women's Theater Festival. The project is called Dignity and it is three centuries and 60 minutes And it is a historical, creative reimagining of certain historical experiences and the standard response that black women have when they face degradations in each one of these miliues They reply with dignity. And so it's these three centuries 19th, 20th, 21st century specific stories, three centuries and 60 minutes, a rockers history lesson. It is for the grown folks because it's like I'm an adult and I just love being in that space. Absolutely Yes, but you can. So they're at Saging the last week of June, june 25th, the Sunday June 25th, and then there's a virtual performance Thursday June 29th. So if you buy a ticket for the virtual, you'll be able to watch it at any point, and then the show wraps on Saturday, july 1st. So super excited about that and the ways that God is opening up opportunities for me to show up and to tell the stories about the sweetness of black girls and the compassion of black women.

And I am so grateful that he's doing it too. You are a treasure to this world, thank you for So are you Oh gosh. Look, i seek to be like people like you. So I mean, you are a fantastic example. I want to be like you when I grow up. So thank you for being on the Unlearned podcast. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and just who you are.

I appreciate it, thank you. Thank you, this has been wonderful, i appreciate you.

I'll see you all next time Again. The Unlearned podcast is all about helping you gain the courage to change your mind so you can be more free, and I hope this episode has helped you to do that. And if you haven't heard the other ones, do it again. I think you'll really, really enjoy it. Let's keep moving to a life of freedom, peace. Thank you once again for listening to the Unlearned podcast. We would love to hear your comments and your feedback about the episode. Feel free to follow us on Facebook and Instagram and to let us know what you think. We're looking forward to the next time, when we are able to unlearn together to move forward towards freedom. See you then.