Uniting Faiths: Exploring Christianity and Unitarian Universalism
What happens when two pastors (who happen to be married!) of differing faith backgrounds engage in an open conversation about the complexities of belief, spirituality, and the challenges of guiding a congregation? Join me as I sit down with Reverend Sandra Summers and Reverend Sam Tietel, two Memphis-based pastors navigating the intricate world of religion and raising their son, Gideon, amid the blend of Christianity and Unitarian Universalism.
In our conversation, we reminisce about our own personal experiences with religion and discuss how Sandra and Sam have cultivated the beauty of small, mature communities within their congregations. As we delve deeper into the topic, they share their unique perspectives on understanding God, reconciling different religious beliefs, and the power of kindness and imperfection in our spiritual journey. We also touch on the significance of engaging curiosity and trusting oneself in exploring our faith.
In the final segment of the episode, we venture into the realms of Paganism, Wicca, and Heathenism, as Sandra and Sam provide insightful perspectives on these often misunderstood belief systems. They encourage us to question labels and to approach these beliefs with curiosity, rather than fear. Don't miss out on this thought-provoking and enlightening episode, packed with valuable lessons on faith, kindness, and the importance of embracing our imperfections.
Hello everybody and welcome once again to the Unlearned Podcast. I'm your host, ruth Abigail Smith, and this is the podcast that is here to help you gain the courage to change your mind so that you can live more free, and we are in a series called Unlearning Religion, which is where I get to talk to some pretty cool people who have had different experiences, different walks of life, that throughout the religious journey, some have landed in very different places, but everyone has engaged the journey well and has experienced freedom as a result, and hopefully their stories will help you do the same. So that's what this series is all about, and I have two of my really good friends here. Y'all now we met. What about? how long have we known each other?
Speaker 2:We've known each other. I mean, it would have been whenever probably I tapped into Micah's stuff So 20, when we moved, so 2017.
Speaker 3:Yeah, probably Something like that, And you and I met later than that.
Speaker 1:We did because we met after national training. So 2018.
Speaker 2:Something like that, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so we've known each other for several years. These are two of the most dynamic, smart, interesting, just Attractive, absolutely Diverse people that you will ever meet, and I am so excited about this conversation. Look, we've been looking forward to it.
Speaker 3:Happy to be here.
Speaker 1:We have tried to do this for what I don't know.
Speaker 2:We've had three or four, we've had like a major storm, we've had babysitters cancel.
Speaker 1:Yes, but we're here, We're here. So these two are clergy members of the clergy. They do not have their colors on, but I share you. they are all agreed up. We promise, and they both lead churches. Maybe your names would be helpful.
Speaker 2:We can do that Your name.
Speaker 1:This is Sandra Summers and Mr Sam Tidal.
Speaker 3:Technically, it's Reverend Sam Tidal Excuse me Well secondly, it's Reverend, sandra Summers by the incorrect.
Speaker 1:We see how this will be. All right, sam has already warned me that he's going to get comfortable, so y'all just excuse Sam for anything that happens in this next hour And this is going to be. Thank you, sam, reverend Sam Tidal.
Speaker 3:You can just call me Sam.
Speaker 1:Well, let's see now. you want something different? No, which one? Sam?
Speaker 3:I know It's, i'm just full of demands. It's terrible really.
Speaker 1:And you all have been pastoring in Memphis for how long?
Speaker 2:Since both of us, since we moved here in 2017.
Speaker 3:Okay, august of 2017.
Speaker 1:Okay, and how long have you been clergy people?
Speaker 2:I was ordained in 2016.
Speaker 3:Okay, And I was ordained in April of 17.
Speaker 1:Okay, cool, sweet. Neither one of you are from Memphis. We are not Right, okay? And so, sandra, where are you?
Speaker 2:from. So it depends on the year, sure, but I claim Lake Michigan as my home. So I was born in Michigan, for the most part raised in Illinois, and then did my undergraduate work in Wisconsin, hopped down to South Carolina for grad school the first time and then moved up to New England for a job outside of Boston Okay, cool.
Speaker 1:And then went to seminary and met this guy In Boston, outside of Boston, outside of Boston. Okay, and where are you from?
Speaker 3:So I was born in California. Okay, i lived there until I was 10. I spent a year in Houston, texas. Yes And then yes, that's right, love it. And then was in the Boston area for 20 years, right up until moving down here.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, and you all met in. You said in seminary We did?
Speaker 2:I actually promised my uncle, who is also clergy, that I would not marry anybody. I met in seminary And I said, of course not, i shall marry Rich so that I can go do the Lord's work. And he ended up co-officiating our ceremony. So that didn't happen, sure. So yeah, we got married the day after we graduated seminary. Oh, fantastic.
Speaker 3:And a Renewton Theological School.
Speaker 1:Okay, very cool, and you all have a little one, we do.
Speaker 3:Gideon, he's two and a half.
Speaker 2:He's the coolest person, he's a horrible man. He's the coolest person, that's pretty great. And when you're a double pastor's kid, like you're gonna get a Bible name right. Well, of course, one of my friends was very worried that we would go like way out there of like are you gonna name him like Shadrack? Sure, we were like no.
Speaker 3:She said Balthazar.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she was like Balthazar.
Speaker 3:That's a lot to do to a child. I was like first of all, Balthazar would be pretty great. I would hang out with a guy named Balthazar. Yeah. One And two. Gideon is like recognizably a name, Sure.
Speaker 1:Right, that's my dad, who is a pastor, wanted to at first name me Sintiki, right? My mother quickly shot that down. No, Yeah, Which you know you don't do that. I don't understand where that came from. It's almost as bad as your Balthazar.
Speaker 3:I mean, so I was really pushing hard for Elisha, okay, as opposed to Elisha.
Speaker 2:Okay, And I was like that what you just said there is what our child will say his entire life. We can't do that.
Speaker 3:But because Elisha, we know the prophet, elisha, right, and all the stuff. Elisha, who comes right after him, less well known, mostly famous for feeding teenagers to bears, and I was like, no, clearly we name him after the guy who fed the kids to the bears. Sure, no, no, no, we're not doing that.
Speaker 1:That's wise, that's wise, thank you.
Speaker 2:Do what I can. Do what I can.
Speaker 1:The poor kid Gideon. We got Gideon.
Speaker 2:Gideon is a good name, okay.
Speaker 1:So I want to dive into a little bit of your stories of how you came up, kind of through your religious experiences, and particularly how you landed, how you came from there and landed where you are. So let's start off with where you are. So you Pastor, can you describe the kind of church you pastor?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so currently I pastor Button Presbyterian Church, which has a very large building and I would say in Memphis is most known for our preschool. So we have a preschool and that's a part of our church, and then the worshiping community is like two dozen people when everybody shows up And it's wonderful. They are beautiful, powerful folk. A majority of them are, i would say, our average age, mid-70s. We do have Miss Nida who's turned in 99 at the end of the month, so she skews the average age a little bit. But, yeah, it's a really unique place and they are really self-aware of who they are And I just started with them at the beginning of this year really to help them figure out who they are and what's next. Yeah, and they know they can't keep on keeping on the way they're keeping on, but they also are worthy of love. They also still have power. So it's a really it's a really fun time for me to come in and be their pastor.
Speaker 1:I love that. I think a lot of people and in my immature state have really criticized small, older churches for even existing and I got checked quickly, particularly by my father. At the time I made a horribly arrogant comment and he checked me and I am grateful to have grown out of that. But it is beautiful And those communities are still vibrant And what he shared with me was like those are a lot of the communities that's where I was groomed Right And a lot of people are groomed in those communities. There's a special opportunity to really love well in smaller, mature communities that we don't, we don't put, we don't give a lot of credit to these days because you have the Megas and you have the globals and all the things.
Speaker 2:But even the way that I try to approach it is just from like an asset, abundance mentality of if you're trying to start a ministry in one of your mega churches. if you had 24 people show up to your first interest meeting, you would call that a win, it would be a huge win. So how do we approach? you know our small number, but still recognizing the power that exists and I think that that's a question for a lot of mainline white Protestant churches across our country, but not a lot of people are approaching it from an asset or resource based place. It's always from a deficit, from what were we to versus like what can we be?
Speaker 1:and who are we. That's good, that's good Sam, can you describe?
Speaker 3:the church you pastor Nicely, I assume? Yeah, that'd be good Yeah. I love my church. Just to be clear, that was a joke. I love my church. I'm the pastor of the Church of the River, which is a Unitarian Universalist congregation in downtown Memphis. We are most known for the view, so we are. When I say we're on the edge of Tennessee, that the front of the sanctuary is glass, i'm gesturing as though people listening to a podcast would be able to see which they can't, but the front of the sanctuary is glass. So as you're sitting there, you're looking out at the Mississippi River as it goes by. You are. The view is stunning and the seating is sort of amphitheater style And I like to say that it does my job for me, because if you walk in and you see the river going by and if you can't have a religious experience looking at that, then there's nothing that I can do for you. My job is done. When they hit the door, i'm an accessory.
Speaker 1:Sure, sure, yeah, that's good, that's good. So why, i mean, have they not figured that out yet?
Speaker 3:Over there They yeah. no, i'm not sure why I still have a job. I feel like a lot of folk would actually be perfectly happy to come and sit for however long.
Speaker 1:It is incredible. It is an incredible view Like it is truly amazing.
Speaker 2:And obviously my husband is like undercutting his ministry and being humble 100%, and you're going to get him out of that here a little bit.
Speaker 1:Great, cool, cool. We will not let him land there.
Speaker 2:Fine, yes, Sam, because I would also say that your church is known for being one of the leaders of inclusion and one of the leaders of justice in our city. Like the view is great, People are better.
Speaker 3:I do like to say, because I'm the only person, everyone else is facing the river, but I obviously have my back to the river. So I like to say I am the person on a Sunday morning who has the view of what makes Church of the River special. I am the one who has the view of what is really good and vibrant in our church.
Speaker 1:That's good, that's really good. I love that. So, sandra, i'm going to go back to you, you, pastor, and the Presbyterian denomination. You help Now, they sure do now, yeah, you do. Now They're out. All right, so it wasn't always that way.
Speaker 2:Nope, i'm collecting denominations like Pokemon cards. That's what I'm doing.
Speaker 1:You grew up. I always get this acronym wrong. It's UCC Correct. Oh, I got it Okay. Good, I got it Okay. Tell us what that stands for.
Speaker 2:So I'm a pastor's kid. Both Sam and I are actually pastor's kids. So my dad was ordained in the United Church of Christ. But a part of my faith formation that was a little bit different is he had dual standing in what is called the NACCC three C's, which is the National Association of Congregational Christian Churches. It just rolls off the tongue. Yes, it does.
Speaker 3:Isn't there also an NACCCC?
Speaker 2:There is. There is an NA4C as well Really, there sure is, and so the UCC is a merger which we'll get to, in truth, the UU denomination as well. So in any merger there are people who don't want to merge. So my dad was both in the United Church of Christ and then the NACCC was a group of congregational churches that chose not to merge with the UCC. But in essence, the majority of my identity comes from the congregational tradition, which is like pilgrims, that kind of vibe in the United States that the congregation is the ultimate authority that there is no hierarchy, that there is no like Pope, anything like that, And while we're in covenant with other congregations, it's covenantal, not authoritative, And so that was for the most part my upbringing. That was where I was ordained. And then I came to Memphis and there's not a lot of UCC churches around here And at the time nobody was hiring. So I hung out with my friends in the DOC, so the Christian Church, Disciples of Christ, And there's a relationship that the DOC has with the UCC. So my ordination was recognized. So I served actually two different DOC churches here in Memphis And then here I am in a PCUSA church, which was not my plan but God's plan. So yeah, so it's just been interesting, because every denomination has their own thing and their own quirks. So the PCUSA is also in relationship with the UCC And so my ordination is recognized. I'm able to preside over elements. I can Mary Barry, baptize people, But according to the Presbyterians I am not allowed to run a session meeting, which is what the PCUSA calls like their church board. And why is that Great question? Okay, because, because those are the rules that somebody decided. They're rooted in the reform tradition. They like their rules and protocol, but it's silly and strange which, when you get down to the nitty-gritty of what actually makes a lot of our Christian denominations different, they're not that different. And now, having served, three of them. Golly, they all wish they were real, real different from each other And they're really not Interesting Like, okay, you do communion every week, you do it once a month. You full immersion baptism, you sprinkle, you do both, like you know. But that's how these denominations were formed over these very specific practices and beliefs, and it was like are you in or are you out? And if you're out, go make your own denomination. Well, yeah, it's just that simple. Yeah, so that's That's my path right now.
Speaker 1:I love it Okay, samuel.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:How about you?
Speaker 3:Samuel, now We've gone from Reverend.
Speaker 2:Samuel, we have, we have, we have. We'll go to Sammy in a minute, yeah please, yeah.
Speaker 1:What is your? How did you So? did you grow up Unitarian Universalists? I did Okay.
Speaker 3:I did. My late mother was a Unitarian Universalist minister, and we're also the product of a merger of the Unitarians and the Universalists And we So my family had been Unitarians for six generations. Okay, so yeah, i am from. I am from a Unitarian and now Unitarian Universalist family.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, so you didn't stray at all. No, yeah.
Speaker 3:No, i mean, but being a UU you can stray pretty far and still be a UU.
Speaker 1:I'd pack that for me.
Speaker 3:So, okay, that's fair. So, unitarian Universalism we are non-dogmatic, we are non-cretal, right? So you can believe whatever you feel called to believe and still call yourself a Unitarian Universalist, provided that what you believe is not harming others, right? So in my church I have Christians, i have atheists, i have Muslims, i've got some pagans, i've got all kind of folks. Yeah, i, my dad, is Jewish, so I come from a blended. I come from a blended family, so a lot of my spiritual practices and the sources that I draw from are Jewish sources. My poor congregation has had to hear me preaching about Talmud, so, yeah, so there's a lot of different faith backgrounds in UU churches. That lends us to being a more open space, a more affirming space, which also makes a lot of people angry and gets us in a lot of trouble. Okay, which is when it gets good.
Speaker 1:That's when it gets fun. So this is Okay. I want to know. I want to know the difference in the way that you all, kind of would handle something right? So I don't know, because what I'm understanding, what you're saying, Sam, is like. correct me if I get this wrong. There's a essentially a very wide spectrum here, right, And it's an idea of I can believe what I want, as long as what I believe doesn't hurt anyone.
Speaker 3:Right, let's give that, and I would say you can believe what you feel called to believe if you've put in the work. Okay, that and this is where you know. I, as your minister, would say you know, if you believe that, tell me why, yeah, and tell me what it means to you that you believe that And tell me how your life is different because that's what you believe And when. When do the beliefs that you hold call like? how do your beliefs guide your decision making And when do you choose what is more difficult or less convenient or not, what you want because of what you believe?
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, okay. How would you guide someone in your church with that same idea?
Speaker 2:I mean, this is where again, at the end of the day, it's not that much different. I I think we are all navigating what it means to be human and recognizing when our beliefs serve us and when our beliefs no longer serve us. I think there is a fluidity that is natural for people who are drawn to Unitarian Universalism, so I would say your conversations there might just be an easier flow, whereas when folk are wrestling with what they believe or who they who they are they have already been told what their box of beliefs should be as a Christian. So my work is also just expanding what that box of Christianity can include, because I would say that that's probably the primary difference is like how is? like the work that I do with people is like how, what can you add to your Christianity while still being authentic to you, while still being authentic to history, tradition, scripture, all those good things? So my work, i would say, is like the unlearning present is you know the the? the box of Christianity actually can be bigger than you're giving it credit for, and that it can be more, wider and expansive than what may have already been presented to you.
Speaker 1:Do you get pushback on that a lot. Or people, are people kind of open and receptive to it and almost like does it? does it kind of? do people breathe a sigh of relief or do they tense up?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm thinking of, you know, my Bible study with my 80 year old ladies And, and we read a couple of books that I was like I don't know how this is going to go. Oh, like we're reading some Rachel held Evans, were reading some Richard roar, And for. So for the, for the group I currently serve, so many of them have said Oh, I always thought this and I didn't know I could. Or that doctor never actually made sense to me. I love the way this author phrased it. So I think there is more doubt present in the Christian community than we give credit for. Yeah, Then we give space for right, Like you know, because we have this binary of like. Doubt is the opposite of faith and that's baloney. No, it's absolute baloney. So I would say, most of the time I experienced people relieved that they can have the doubts or they can say you know that doctrine that a bunch of white dudes made 500 years ago doesn't work for me. Great, It's okay that that doesn't work for you. Yeah, what does work for you. Here are other tools and resources within our tradition that maybe you weren't exposed to, that can serve you now.
Speaker 1:So, sam, what is the common ground at your, at your congregation?
Speaker 3:I mean, i ask myself this question. I would say, the common ground amongst Unitarian Universalists, if we're being honest with ourselves and if we're doing it right, is we are all seeking and we are all searching and we are all deconstructing, which is interesting because the overwhelming majority of Unitarian Universalists were raised something else. Okay. Yeah, that, for the most part people who end up in Unitarian Universalist churches. I have a lot of people who sort of wash up on the shore in pretty bad shape from whatever tradition they grew up in. Or even if they're not traumatized, the tradition that they came up in is not somewhere where they currently feel fulfilled or safe. I sometimes say the way that I feel about conservative Christianity is the way that emergency room doctors feel about motorcycles Right Like I don't see it. When it's rewarding and beautiful, i see the ways in which it can go wrong. I think a lot of the common ground is trying to find religious community, having had that experience of leaving. For those of us like me who grew up as Unitarian Universalists, our challenge is to always still be seeking and always still be learning and deconstructing even if we don't hopefully have a serious religion-based trauma to deconstruct the way that some other folk do.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, that's so. Have you had to? Have you gone through a period, even though you've been Unitarian, universalist your entire life and you've kind of followed into the footsteps of your ancestors? Have you strayed or questioned or like what has that been for you?
Speaker 3:Absolutely So. My perception of God now was completely different than my perception of God was when I was younger, okay, and so my mom died of ALS, which is a pretty horrible way to die, and I remember I was talking with this other Unitarian Universalist minister and I said the God that I believe in wouldn't do this. And he said then you're going to need to let that God go and make room for a new one. Or he said and when you're ready, make room for a new one. And that's a thing that I say to people now that there are times when there is a God, there is a vision of God, there is a perspective on God that can serve you for a while in your life and that can be what you need for a while in your life. And there are also moments when the perspective on God that you had is a perspective you're going to have to let go and to make room for a new understanding. And I had to do that when my mom died And that's it I also. There's a way in which I did that around sacred texts that most Unitarian Universalist churches. You would rarely, if ever, hear anything out of the Bible. Okay, really, that's just, it's not. You would hear poetry. You would hear you know sort of more obscure, more esoteric ancient texts, but you would rarely. And if you did, hear the Bible, i mean like Christmas, maybe Easter, but it would be in a very sort of academic way. Okay, and I preach out of the Bible most of the time. Okay, okay. And which is the thing that I really I hadn't I don't know that I had ever opened the Bible until I got to seminary.
Speaker 2:Really, that was a fun time dating him. Wait, really, because he would come back from different classes and he's like did you know that this story is in there? Yes, really. Yes, i did.
Speaker 3:So, I hadn't okay a friend of mine and, like I knew a little bit a friend of mine who I won't name because she's a wonderful Yu-Yu minister who's I don't want to like blow up her spot on this podcast raised her hand in New Testament class and said Paul, who? What do you mean when you just keep saying Paul? That's amazing. And she just thought that she was like I couldn't figure out like is Paul like a theologian Right? Is Paul like who? Who is this guy? Who are you talking about? Some guy named Paul? I love it. That's a fair question.
Speaker 2:Right. And I feel like, even like biblical scholars are still asking the question who is Paul? Who is?
Speaker 1:Paul Right.
Speaker 3:It's still a good question. She meant it in a much deeper way than she realized. So, yeah, so that getting to know especially the Hebrew Bible, which we would also call the Old Testament, and the Talmud, and getting to know the sort of the text that my Jewish ancestors knew and loved and studied has been, it's been a pretty amazing thing, it's been a gift, and I like to say the best chefs are the ones who cook with the ingredients that they grew up eating at home. Yeah. And so, and as a preacher, i think of myself kind of like a chef, so these Jewish texts are, you know, i grew up experiencing that with my dad's side of the family And I'm also something that I am connected to right, and so that's why I use that And that's relatively recent in my life.
Speaker 1:That's Sandra. Has your perspective on God changed over the years? Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you know my journey of deconstruction. I would say didn't. I think I started deconstructed And you know, as a fellow pastor's kid, i had my own experiences of God and of the spirit And I knew at a very early age that my dad was not God, which is often a struggle for pastor's kids. That was for me Right. Like, oh wait, my dad's a human being, wait what? But like but on Sundays and like the things and the stuff. So I had my own connection to the Holy and the sacred, apart from my dad, and I credit that as to actually kind of the stability of my face. And in middle school I went to a church camp. That was super awesome and fun And I got to like explore my own identity outside of that And because of that journey and because I knew the facts right, like I'm good at school, i can get all the answers right, but I have always continued to expand my understanding of God. I think that's kind of the thread of my own journey, which then makes sense as to why that's. The journey I walk with others of God can be bigger than this particular dogma or this particular belief that God is expansive, and I see it everywhere in scripture. Right, like I do believe that God created and God is still creating. I do believe that Jesus calls us into relationship so that relationships can grow and expand right, and I do believe that the spirit is just the agitator in there and being like get your act together. Like are you co-creating, are you in relationship? So for me, over time, just God has expanded, which is, i think, more so in the South since we've moved here. When I say, like my husband is the pastor, church or the river, and people just give me the like southern side eye, but like like you just did, but like with the smile still happening, but the side eye up here, and because I understand God is expansive and inclusive, of course God includes my husband, like of course. So it's not a conflict for us. I think sometimes Christian holy days, high holy days, get interesting in our homes, particularly as we're figuring out what it looks like to parent. But I would say in general, we want, we expand, like, we include, and if it works for you, great. If it doesn't work for you, let's figure out what does. And my, i don't have a, i'm invested in it, but I'm not invested that you think and believe and walk through life, exactly how I do.
Speaker 1:So I, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna raise some tension here because I I I'll be honest, before I met you all, i had a compli I would not have understood how that worked. I just wouldn't have Like it. I wouldn't have had a box for it, and you know unitarian universalism it I wouldn't have had a box for that. I remember we had like this is one of my best times, as that We were there for like four hours, which was something ridiculous. It was longer.
Speaker 2:It was like, maybe it was like six. Well, I think you came over for brunch And then, and then you had dinner with us.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so true, like we were just talking and I learned so much Um, i think one of the most interesting things and you mentioned earlier, sam, how, um, you know, uh, preaching from different texts, right, and the idea of preaching from any text other than the Bible from me was just out of my, out of my wheelhouse, not something I thought about in a now, if you're you know, other than just another religion, you know what I'm saying. But the idea of different texts being taught in one place, i just I had no box for that, right? Yeah, so I'm assuming in your denom, in your congregation, you preach exclusively from the. Bible, right, yep, um, i, i. There have to be people that are listening, like me, that have to have to have the question How do you, the two of you, reconcile that right, right, reconcile, um, some, some tenets of particularly the Christian faith? I think, because there's, you know, we're in the south, we're in Memphis, so there's a very particular way of being a Christian right And that's already not my way.
Speaker 2:Right, It's. You're already not there. That's just not who you are. I already do not check those back. You blow that out. Right, I'm a lady pastor. First of all, First of all, that's first thing right.
Speaker 1:And then you know, pc USA is just not as um. I think that that's the um less conservative side of Christianism.
Speaker 2:Correct And you and you CC is uh is also very left aggressive denomination.
Speaker 1:So you're already not right.
Speaker 2:You don't, I don't, I don't meet the meet the checklist.
Speaker 1:You don't, It's all right, um, but yet, and still, you would still call yourself a somebody of the Christian faith. I do So in with that idea, right, reconciling some just fundamental things. I'm just going to, if I was listening to this, this is what I would ask Great, all right, how? first of all, how do you reconcile eternity between the two, Like this theologically right? How? what do we, what do we? how, how do you get there? Um, i think you were you raised something very interesting with about parenting, right, high holy days. There are Christian high holy days that are very important. I'm imagining that is not necessarily the case in the Unitarian, universalist world. Um, uh, you know this, these kind of big theological boxes of grace and you know sin and you know forgiveness and you know all these things, right, that kind of defined what Christianity is for a lot of people. Um, but the you all are, you're, you're one, you're married, right, you're, you were married, i love it. So it just kind of give people an idea of, like, what are some of the things you've wrestled with? Um, and how have you, uh, how have you walked through that And why? and I think the other question that at least I would have is, like, man, how do you, how can you really be free without there being some sort of feeling like there's a common ground on which to stand? Right, how do? where does freedom come from? Um in in this context? right, especially, particularly the Universalist, unitarian? Universalist context right?
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, let me, let me yeah, And it gets all confusing because the two words of his denomination are Christian ideologies. And yet, right Like cause, you got Unitarian the belief in one God, universalism, which is the, the belief that we're all included in in heaven. Okay, So that's what those two words mean. And they're, and they're, and those are the two denominations, Christian denominations that merged were the Unitarians and the Universalist to form this new thing.
Speaker 3:To form this new thing.
Speaker 1:So so so. so all right, this is good, help me. Yep, so Universalist. I didn't understand that to be a Christian Denomination.
Speaker 2:It is a Christian Denomination. It is a Christian Denomination, oh yeah.
Speaker 3:Okay, it was.
Speaker 1:It was Okay, what happened.
Speaker 3:They merged with the Unitarians. Okay. Um, basically and this is a wild oversimplification They merged in the early 60s because the Unitarians were out of money and the Universalists were out of people.
Speaker 1:Got it Okay.
Speaker 3:So so it was, and a total marriage of convenience. I once gave a ride home to one of the Universalist ministers who had negotiated the merger in the 60s and he was still sore about it. Really He said those, those. Unitarians are no good. Those Unitarians just totally pulled one over on us. We should have joined the UCC.
Speaker 2:Oh really, This was all happening at about the same time, the late 50s, early 60s, a lot of these, yeah, really Particularly like American started, us started denominations. Okay, we're all shifting in results after, after the world wars of who are we, what's our size, what are we about? Okay, um, but I would say in terms of like tension of our beliefs, i'm trying to think of like a like good juicy one. I feel like the tension.
Speaker 1:I don't know that there is one.
Speaker 3:Because, in terms of big theological questions, we see largely eye to eye. Yeah. I think where there's tension is largely cultural tension. Okay, oh, that's true, that comes up a lot There's tension in that when she had Gideon saying he has risen, indeed, i didn't like that one bit And I kept saying And. I was like but this is Easter, this is where you can learn how to say You know, gideon, can you say Baruch Hatha?
Speaker 2:Adanoi.
Speaker 3:Like I was not, and he went no.
Speaker 1:And I was like oh well, first of all, that's a real hard thing. Yeah, I'd say no now.
Speaker 3:But um uh, that where there's tension it's Christian culture is a thing that I struggle to be comfortable with again, because what I was raised with Christianity as a sort of boogeyman- I was raised with Christianity, as those are the hateful people who harmed your parents' friends. Yeah Right. Like that's. That's who I knew Christians to be. Yeah. And even now a lot of the pastoral care that I do. The conversation that I have two or three times a week is people telling me about the completely horrific, completely horrific things that happened to them in the Christian communities where they grew up. Mm. So, so, so it's. I get itchy about he is risen, Not because resurrection theology makes me uncomfortable but because of what it represents. Christian culture is more what I get queasy about. I need to get better about that. That's a failing on my part. That is a prejudice on my part. I say this in a room full of two Christians. That is real Like sitting here in a Christian church. We are recording this in a Christian church. Also, I get a lot of threats from Christians. I get a lot of letters saying pretty ugly things to me from Christians.
Speaker 2:Some of them threatening our family, some of them specifically naming me. People will do their research. People.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, there was one. There has been so many, but there was one that I think about a lot, that they wrote this long thing about why I was wrong and bad, and they had a biblical citation for each statement. And then in the last page they said William L L Channing and Theodore Parker, who are two early Unitarian theologians, are currently in hell, and every day Satan takes them to a place called the Fun Center, where he allows those they misled in life to brutally torture them.
Speaker 2:This is real life.
Speaker 3:And you and.
Speaker 2:I are looking at each other like. That doesn't sound like Jesus to me.
Speaker 1:That doesn't even sound like mythology.
Speaker 3:What was so good is that he biblically cited every other thing so clearly. Biblical accuracy was important to them.
Speaker 2:And then on the last paragraph.
Speaker 3:They just sent this letter to a whole bunch of Unitarian Universalist ministers all over the country. Someone posted on the there's like a closed UU minister's Facebook group And so someone posted like did anyone else get this letter? And we were like. A bunch of us were like yeah, i did get that. I keep meaning to and just it keeps falling off my to-do list. Find a cartoonist who can make Fun Center t-shirts Right I mean truly Right. So for me, when there's the Christianity as a religion, as an ideology, as a spiritual practice, I'm into it. Christian culture is what makes me uncomfortable. It's like it was Gandhi who said I like your Christian, I like your Christ. I don't like your Christians. They're so unlike your Christ. Like that's.
Speaker 2:And I think you know for me, i also am uncomfortable with Christian culture. Like anyone who who reads the Gospels that I read. that's like you know what I should do. I should threaten a minister and his family. That's what I see the Gospel calling me to do. I'm like, can I sit down with you? She can read the books, because I don't see what you see. But it, you know, christianity is the story of of my ancestry and of my upbringing And I love it And I see the way that it does cause harm. Yeah. And I still see good and value and joy and possibility. There was something that you had said earlier of like, like what unites us, and you said something about like how do you both like, how can you find freedom in that? And I was like I think freedom is what connects us. Like that, that is that is what I think helps us navigate. You know our different like. What are we going to have our kids say on Easter type conversation? But one of our, one of our dear friends, the Reverend Vahisha Hassan, always says, always asks the question like does it feel like freedom? And you know, when we get those letters I'm like that doesn't feel like freedom. I don't feel like freedom.
Speaker 3:Like how do we, how do you?
Speaker 2:that can't feel like freedom for them. So what if freedom? I don't know. I'm asking you, what if freedom is? what is our like? shared value, Yeah. She's like I guess, so We never really named it that way, but that's yeah this is good.
Speaker 3:This is good Like couples counseling, right We?
Speaker 2:are on the same camp.
Speaker 3:I'll be invoicing you? Yeah, do you take our copay? And and yeah, cause so much of I, i believe, and this is, this is I mean, and I get to because I'm a UU. I can just pull from various traditions and do do, do whatever. A lot of my work is to alleviate suffering and to help people, be better people Okay.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 3:Agreed Same And I would say I have a slightly wider toolbox with which to do that. I got people in my church who are never going to look at that Bible with me. Right. They're. that's not they. they have been too badly harmed, they the the hell that they have been through already has been too severe. So we we look other places And I think Sandra and I both have a desire to do that. We both have a desire to alleviate suffering and to help people be better people.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think what is also true just about the nature of being a pastor is that most of our time when we're in pastoral relationship with folk is dealing with the big stuff of life, right Like we are present at births and deaths, at weddings, at surgeries. We are present in these big life changing moments. I have never once been with someone right before a surgery or before, you know, a loved one dies. That's like I would like to discuss the nature of the Trinity, right. I've met nobody who in those big what is the meaning of this moment wants to figure out doctrine and denominational whatever Right, not a one. And I also. I also work in the hospital systems as a chaplain, so that's a majority of my work there. So most of the time the conversations we're having is about the big stuff, right, which I think plays out in our marriage, that like we focus on that big stuff not the little stuff. Yeah, like we might. I'm like. It's not like we go back and forth on like atonement theology or you know, because not, i'm not and I don't want to minimize people for whom hold those doctrines very, very closely. Of course That's real. I have never met someone who is clinging on to a specific church doctrine when faced with the big stuff of life And that's usually where we meet people is in the big stuff of life.
Speaker 1:And I think you're right about that. I do think that until you meet those big things in life, those doctrines are the big things. They are.
Speaker 2:You know It is. we forget how weird our lives are, like that's so real. That's real.
Speaker 3:That's real.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Like we forget. Like oh yeah, I just did a wedding and now I need to go blubbering Unless somebody who is having hip surgery, or I need to go sit with this family whose child is no longer alive, you know, or who's you know, got to figure out where we're going to put mom and dad in in retirement community. Like these big moments And that's our every day, is being with people in the big moments And it shifts your understanding of what actually matters in a practical theology way.
Speaker 3:And it's also oh, did I completely lose my train of thought? Choo-choo, come on back. It's also right. You forget. You forget what you're supposed to care about. You just kind of say like and like Sandra was saying, you forget that. This isn't normal. Yeah, right. Like I, the children's minister at my church and I have this deal. So I don't do well with bugs. Sure, like I don't like bugs, i don't like snakes. Amen. So Cindy handles bugs and snakes and I handle the existential reality of death.
Speaker 1:Excellent. Fair trade, fair trade, fair trade.
Speaker 3:So I mean that people die and what does it mean that some people die way too early? What does it mean that good people die and bad people live Right, like, all like? if you want to have that conversation, i'm totally comfortable having that conversation. If you want me to pick up that spider, you're out of your mind So and I just have decided that, like, i've accepted this about myself. But when you are in a position that Sandra was talking about, you do what works. You use the tools that you can use to ease this person's pain. And you want to talk about Jesus? Let's talk about Jesus. You want to talk about Buddha? Let's talk about Buddha. Yeah. Right, and it's not. theology is a luxury in a lot of ways, and when you're doing the work on a certain level, it's a luxury you don't always have access to.
Speaker 1:Man, okay, rev, i don't disagree. Okay, man, okay, so here's what's. I can feel the tension of the other, the audience. You know what I mean. Great, no, because it's like, okay, i hear you, but what about truth? But what about what Jesus said? But what about? and it's like, how do I not elevate those things above a human anything? Right, how do I do that? And is that right? It may feel like, yeah, that makes sense, but that's not what the Bible, that's not what I read, that's not what I understand. And you know, i think, because that makes anyway, i can feel the tension. Yeah, right.
Speaker 3:And so, in terms of what about truth? my response is eh. I knew you were going to do that. I mean, what about truth? I don't know what is true. I don't really care what is true. I am more interested in what is kind, Because in terms of what is true, that's really difficult to know, at least for me. I am rarely able to know what is true. I am usually able to know what is kind And I think it is more important to be kind than it is to be correct. And in terms of theology, it'll work itself out. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Sandra, what do you have to say?
Speaker 2:Well. So I think this is another thread between our two belief systems and our daily lives, in that if it's not moving you towards freedom, if it's not moving you towards hope, it's worthy of examining. And if there is something that Sam or I have said even you know so far in this conversation, it just felt like a gut punch. I want to know why. I want someone to sit with that and be curious about that, because I watch so many people build their entire faith around a particular scripture or a particular belief And then, when that one thing goes, the whole house of cards falls down and that is painful to watch. As a pastor and as a chaplain, i want people to get curious about what makes them uncomfortable, because that's teaching us something Our bodies are good, they are worthy of being paid attention to. So if something feels yicky, we have the biological choice to run the heck away from it, to condemn it, to call it evil, to call it Satan, to go to the Fun House Zone place.
Speaker 3:Fun.
Speaker 2:Center. Fun Center. Or we have the opportunity to get curious, and when I see Jesus' ministry, i see someone who got curious about the people around him, about understanding the stories, about meeting the needs of where they were at, not someone who simply wrote a letter and left Right, right right, who said well, this is the way that it is. Right, jesus told a lot more stories than he answered questions. Right, and I think we need to keep living like that. So if there is one particular thing that needs to be absolutely true in your religious identity, i can guarantee you that that's gonna come crashing down on you. Yeah, and I don't want that for someone. I want someone right now to get curious, to add to their understanding of what it means to have faith, what it means to have a religion to be able to weather the storms that Sam and I are gonna meet you in. Yeah, that's what I want for people. So if there is tension in what Sam and I are saying, good, mm Right, like you and I come from the world where tension just means that there's growth happening, cool, cool, that's great, and our society doesn't? we treat tension as bad, Right, like it's inherently bad. We gotta run from it. But what if we got curious, yeah, and leaned in, and leaned in And I think that that's also a shared value of Sam and I is when he says something from the Talmud and I'm like, i'm sorry, what? And then when I start singing some Jesus song, he's like what? But it comes from a like I don't understand. Help me understand, not I don't understand. Therefore, it's bad.
Speaker 3:Some of the Jesus songs you sing are bad.
Speaker 2:No, He's not wrong.
Speaker 1:Some of that.
Speaker 2:Look, there's a lot of like Jesus is my boyfriend songs.
Speaker 3:Oh those are not good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, i look Well and we also started dating when I was a family pastor, so we're talking a lot of earworm type things, my thing about Christian music, cause I'll listen to gospel all day. Yes.
Speaker 3:Like it's not the lyrics that I don't like, well, it's with like mainstream, like contemporary Christian music. I feel like every note is played perfectly, every vocalist sings like they have perfect teeth, and I listen to that music and I think there is no room for me here. This is so perfect. Wow. That there's no, that I will never belong. I will never like gospel has some emotion to it. It has some grit Slides. And with like Christian music, like contemporary Christian music, it feels like a sitcom from the 50s that's just designed to make you feel bad for not being like them. Wow. It feels aspirational in this really toxic way.
Speaker 2:So that's why I That's right, i thought you were just gonna like come after one of my like you know VBS songs, or something.
Speaker 3:Oh no, the VBS songs, which also get stuck in my head. That's how I know.
Speaker 2:The 12. Disciples The 12 disciples.
Speaker 3:That's Yes, yeah, i mean, that's how I know. Yeah, that's how I've learned a lot of things. Those I don't mind at all. My God is greater. my God is greater. It's like I like that song. Come on now. now two more Why you gotta come out there.
Speaker 1:Sam, come on now. I can't stand that song.
Speaker 3:I can't, I can't.
Speaker 1:To be fair, it's not my favorite And I, but I and I told I will say I wasn't expecting you to go there with that question, here we go. That was really profound And I totally see that And I've never, i've never really considered that difference in the music and the difference between gospel and different Christian. But I mean, you're right, like there's a there's, there's, there's no real room for improvisation, for a shift for Imperfection.
Speaker 2:right Yeah, imperfection, Who gets? the mic. We don't often, you know. maybe this is one of the other beauties I see in small church. Like you know, in a big church the best singer gets the mic Absolutely, and in my in my group of 24, it's whoever is available to sing. Now, that's the truth, and they are gonna sing, and they're gonna sing. And there's beauty in that, absolutely, and I'm not minimizing the, the craft and the art of professional worship singers. And where is their room for the oops? Yeah, for the human.
Speaker 1:Because there's a, there's a learning. That's one of the things I enjoyed most about growing up in the black church, honestly, was watching the four-year-old drummer take over after the worship set was done And now we're just kind of like playing behind the preacher And they let the four-year-old do it Because he's he's and it's not perfect And it's, it is a little, but he's learning And that four-year-old's gonna turn into this bad eight-year-old who can, who can play like he could play on bill right At eight and 10, right, it's because you're in a community that is nurturing you and growing you and sitting with you through the imperfection. I think there's beauty in that And honestly, to circle back around to what you were saying before, i think that that the way you all approach ministry centers, that like, how do you sit with people, nurture people, be with people through their imperfections, and that is that is how you approach, that is the commonality in the approach to ministry. Yeah. I mean, which is a beautiful thing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and with the and with the expectation of simply bearing witness, not saying you're imperfect like or or even that the goal is perfection. No, thank you. Yeah, at least not as the world defines it. Yeah, and it sounds terrible and not like freedom.
Speaker 1:No, no, it's not And I so. all right, you've thoroughly confused, i think, a lot of people and made them.
Speaker 2:That just means we need to keep talking.
Speaker 1:I know I know And made them be like yeah, i don't. Maybe they've turned off the podcast at this point, i don't know, and that's perfectly fine, but for those of you that are still listening. you know I'd love for you to each just encourage particularly. I mean, we're in the South, we're in Memphis, and you know you've already kind of described the completely, you know, horrible version of what it's like to be pastors for you all's experiences, pastors from some of the Christian community, which is just I'm that fun center thing. I'm not gonna forget that.
Speaker 2:That is just And that's one of like dozens of fun dozens.
Speaker 1:I just I don't. I'm really, I struggle. Oh, I struggle so much with stuff like that. I just When we're off the air.
Speaker 3:I'll tell you about one that I can't talk about on the air.
Speaker 1:Got it, But that was really funny. Excellent, Oh, I look forward to that, But I would love for you to help some of the audience unlearn a little bit of you know. How do I engage curiosity without feeling like I'm gonna lose my foundation? How do I do that? Right? How would you help people to do that? each of you?
Speaker 2:Want me to go first.
Speaker 3:I'm trying not to push back against the idea that losing your foundation would be a bad thing.
Speaker 1:Push, don't try to push back, push back.
Speaker 3:Okay, Why is losing your foundation a bad thing? I can I clarify.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's scary.
Speaker 3:Your foundation will inevitably be lost. Mm-hmm. So why do we need to cling to that foundation? Isn't it better to lose the foundation and be free than to stick to the foundation and be not fully realized?
Speaker 1:I? that's a great question And I so I think in. I'm a visual, i'm thinking in pictures, right, so I think about so, the difference being whether or not I can be suspended in the air versus walking on the ground. That's just one of my where my head is, and so I guess, when I say foundation something I can when I do fall and I will inevitably fall in some way what am I landing on and what props me back up? Your feet. Facts, but what holds my feet?
Speaker 3:Not as important as the feet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, interesting, so it's interesting. So my answer is also to your question, is also in the body. Mm. So what I would tell one of your listeners is in this exact moment, and I won't do it in this studio, but hopefully you're listening somewhere. That you can do this is to unbutton your pants. This isn't gonna get that weird. I know what podcast this is.
Speaker 3:I'm so curious. Yeah, all right, i was told that we're going in. Okay, all right.
Speaker 2:Let your belly take up the shape that it actually is supposed to take up, not the shape that you've told it to. Not the shape that society has told you to. All of us suck in our gut. Right, all of us hold something way, way too tight and it shows up in the body. If we can release one part of our bodies, we can enter into one part of curiosity, and by releasing our bodies we're taking up a little more space because, more than likely, if this conversation has been interesting or curious, that person, whoever the listener is hasn't been taking up the full space that they were created to take up. Yeah, so physically, let your body take up a little more space and then get curious. Get curious about your feet. Yeah, yeah, that's good. That's what I would say. I love that.
Speaker 1:I feel like I co-opted your answer a little bit.
Speaker 2:I actually. No, I didn't You did that. No, he co-opted your question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, You took over, so I'm taking back. So how would you? I like that.
Speaker 2:And also answer her question. Yes, my question.
Speaker 3:Here's what I would say In terms of encouragement towards spiritual growth and in terms of encouragement towards how do you do that without traumatizing yourself? Okay yeah, this is going to sound really feeble, but I believe it. You will know. You will know where you need to be. You will know where you are being led. You will know what you need. If you honestly ask yourself the right questions, if you say what do I need? What am I curious about? Where do I want to go? Where do I feel called to go? I would say trust yourself And I would say, if you can do that and if you can trust yourself to explore what you want to explore, there is nothing out there that is going to suck your beliefs out of you. There is no book you will open and suddenly you're a terrible person. Most religions will ultimately lead you to the same place. Most religions will ultimately lead you towards caring for people and giving to those who have less and like most, and loving your family. Like it's unusual for one religion to have a message that is particularly different from another religion and it's unusual for religious communities to function particularly differently. Like the difference between religious communities has more to do with the size of the community than with their beliefs. So go where you are loved, go where you are comfortable, go where you're curious, and you will know what you need. You can trust yourself there And also, people are the same wherever you go. So don't think that finding a new spiritual path If you are frustrated with your congregation, finding a new spiritual path is not going to right, like people are still people wherever you go. I want to tell you this story really quickly. So I was getting a tattoo If you're listening to the podcast, i have tattoos and my tattoo artist asked me what I do for a living and I told her and she said, oh, i'm a Satanist. And the tattoo was halfway done. We're finishing the tattoo. And so I asked her the question that I always ask people when I meet someone of religion, that I've never met someone of that religion before where I said can you tell me about a time when you made a choice that was a different choice? because you said, well, i want to do this, but the satanic thing to do is to do this The same way that like, well, the Christian thing is this, or the Muslim, can you tell me about a time when you did that? She said, well, i mean, i say that I'm a Satanist, i never go to services and I get the newsletter, but I don't read it. And I was just saying this thing.
Speaker 2:That is every local congregation ever.
Speaker 1:It's the same thing I get the newsletter but I don't read it.
Speaker 3:Your satanic priest and I have the same headaches, like we have the same frustrations. It's in the newsletter. Right, and so I say that, to say that go where you feel free, go where you are led and know that people will be people there, just like they're people where you are now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i know they've turned the podcast off by now. I'll tell you they are done. You'll get the statistics back. Boom, it's a wrap. I'll be the only one listening to this. Okay, you brought this up and I want to do this. Because I want to do this again for those that are still listening, for the audience, because this is one of the things that you helped me with.
Speaker 3:Sure.
Speaker 1:I of making some differences, help some more conservative Christians than Sandra. Well, it's just about it. Unlearn what some of these other belief systems are, particularly because you mentioned this and you have different folks in your church. I'm going to think of three Paganism, wiccans and Heathens.
Speaker 3:So yeah, explain the difference. Paganism is more, and I am not an expert on this, so so I understand, but you're.
Speaker 1:That's why I wanted you to do it, because you'll be able to explain it in a way that people yeah, that so yeah, my understanding is that Paganism is sort of an umbrella term.
Speaker 3:Or is So that a? Wiccan or a Heathen could refer to themself as a Pagan, the same way that, like, a Lutheran or a Presbyterian could call themself a Christian. So Wicca, or the Wiccan religion, is a nature-based religion. It is an earth-centered religion. It has nothing to do with cursing anyone. It has nothing to do with the devil. The devil is a Christian idea. So that's not something that a Wiccan would probably even really have much to say about, except oh yeah, that's a thing that people call me. So Wicca is more about communion with the earth and communion with. they have a vision of God that is sort of a Sandra, i think, actually knows more about this than I do. This is an accurate statement, So like Sandra is looking at me and I'm like you've done more research on this than I have, so they have a sort of God and Goddess duality that is important. So Wicca is all about we're going to heal people with herbs. We're going to learn lessons from wild animals. We're going to learn from the earth. We're going to center our spirituality on the earth. The heathens that I have met are people who follow the sort of old European religious canon, so people who I had breakfast with a heathen priest once and he said Because of course he did, of course he did. He was really nice It was a great breakfast. He was a really cool guy. He was talking about Thor and Loki and Odin and I said I'm going to be honest and I'm so sorry if this is an offensive thing to say I know Thor and Loki and Odin because they're characters in the Marvel movies. And he said that's fine, that's how most people know those names And he would say that, for them, most heathens don't really believe that there's a guy sitting up in a cloud somewhere named Odin, who's a guy with a beard and an eye patch. That they're all. it's all metaphors. These are metaphor. it's like picture the New Testament, but just the parables. And that they represent these characters, these gods represent ideas. If you read the book, there's a book called Norse mythology by Neil Gaiman. That is just excellent fiction retellings of these stories that is really that. I thought was really interesting, So that's-.
Speaker 2:I think the only thing I would add, particularly just knowing your audience, whoever's still hanging around by, now or hanging by threads, is for the most part, within Christian culture. again going back to what Sam talked about, is culture We historically, for thousands of years, have called anything that doesn't exactly fit Pagan Right. Like that has become an umbrella term and that is where we have whitewashed earth based traditions that our ancestors were doing alongside Christianity. That's where we have dismissed so much good and helpful theology in the pursuit of white supremacy. I don't have better words for that. sorry, but like we have demonized anything that doesn't exactly fit our understanding of Christianity. So if you sage your home, that could be considered paganism. Also, sage has antimicrobial properties that our ancestors were using before there was Lysol, like all of those things are true. So again, the choosing, the curiosity and like okay, we're calling them Pagan. why? Where does that tradition come from? Who is it harming? Is it just about defining our boundaries Or is it just this constriction that has happened by? like, well, you know those pagans, and then they become their own boogie monster?
Speaker 3:Yeah, Yeah. I have a thing that I want to. this is the thing that I really want to say about that, too is if a person can be harmed growing up in a religious tradition, they probably end up with me right. I've met a lot of people who are harmed by Christians. I met some people who are harmed by Muslims. I met some people who are harmed by Jews. I have never met someone who was traumatized by their pagan upbringing. I have never met someone who was traumatized growing up with Wiccans or with heathens. It's worth and I'll say one, i'm sure, my description of Wicca and heathenism. We're both super inaccurate and we're both like my biased, ignorant perspective, and they'll probably if someone, somehow, if there's a pagan listening to this you never know. They'll probably be really cool about it, and offer me.
Speaker 2:They'll be carryable.
Speaker 3:They'll probably say actually it's a little more like this Let me recommend a book to you, right, it's not so? the other thing that I would say about all of these people to the two listeners who we've still got is these are not scary people. These are not bad people. These are not people who want to hurt you. These are not the people who you may have been brought up to think that they are, but I have sure they have out on everything in the book I The especially the wickens who I have met have been so loving and so welcoming and so kind, and our people who love the earth and who love the animals and the plants yeah and the moon and sun and stars, and that's a how, how they anchor themselves in this world and It's worth exploring because the people you will meet are kind and caring people, because that is something that's really valued by their community. So so the the notion that we have that these are Evil people who are demonic and making human.
Speaker 2:Addressed to me from from a heathen. Yeah, we're a pagan, tell me how I'm not being a good Christian.
Speaker 3:I've never gotten yeah, no, i I've gotten letters saying, hey, can we? You know I've got letters from heathen saying, hey, can we?
Speaker 2:can we meet up?
Speaker 3:We use your. Can we use your church space for our tree celebration? Excellent but uh, yeah, it's, it's. It's only been Christians that have threatened me.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's Wow, yeah. So honestly I I hope that's helpful for people. I know that even myself like like I said, being friends with y'all has helped me truly to unlearn some of that stuff I didn't know, you know, and I and I've never I Don't think I've ever been afraid of it, but I've never leaned into or really searched it out and never really felt the need to do you want to hang out and have lunch with?
Speaker 3:With me and Sandra and with the, the Wiccan high priest and priestess of Memphis. Yes, Yeah great They're friends of ours. Yeah, we could. It would be really easy to make that happen. Their names are Emily and Steven. They're really nice people.
Speaker 1:Do you want them?
Speaker 3:on the podcast possibly.
Speaker 1:I figure it out. Yeah well, i'm ending this particular series, but we'll find a way. Yeah yeah, great Man, are you kidding me? I would love to have lunch with the for you And I wouldn't do anything but sit there and listen and laugh, because y'all are funny Um, particularly Sam Samus. You're just a funny person.
Speaker 3:I agree, Um it's a defense mechanism.
Speaker 1:I want to go back to something you said and and That that I I think is so important, and I tell a lot of the kids that I, i, um, i engage this right when we talk about spiritual anything is Know what you believe and why you believe it. Mm-hmm. I'm less concerned about. Let me say, i'm less concerned about the specifics, about what I am less concerned about that. I am much more concerned about you knowing why you believe whatever you say you believe. I have seen more harm With people in the Christian tradition from not understanding why they believe it then, the actual what's and How's around it, like it's it's. You can tell me what, you can even tell me how, but you can't tell me why. And That, to me, has caused so much more damage is If you would explore why you believe that I, i know, i believe, i know it's helped me, you will be more free. And so, i think, wherever anyone is to you, you know Just why do you believe it. If you, if you can, if you can answer that with some level of, with some level of of assurance, i mean that word very. Yeah, i just like a ground right, but but to the degree that you can feel that, okay. Okay, because That and I'll have to agree with it, it's not necessary for me to agree with it. It's not my story and it's not my journey, but what concerns me and I speak for the people the Christian faith is, that's the community that I know. I know What concerns me is when I come up with people, when I when I run into people who are so adamant about something, but then you can't tell me why. Yeah, that's scary to me and usually rooted in fear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's usually rooted in shame.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm, and I'm usually like, but like, let's talk about that let's talk about that part And when, like you said, when you when that does something to your insides, you need to pay attention to it and explore it, don't run from it lean into it and not shame yourself absolutely.
Speaker 3:That that it's this is okay it's and Regular and regular.
Speaker 2:So regular and beautiful.
Speaker 3:Yeah and good and healthy. That's right, That there's nothing worse than believing The same thing your whole life and never asking why and never exploring it and never Like God what a boring way to live, i agree. I.
Speaker 1:Agree, i agree, i think that's so true. What a boring way to live. And it's not free. You can't be free if you refuse to ask questions and if you refuse to get curious and if you refuse to, you know, if you continue to just keep accepting things just because they were handed to you. And that's what I love. I love that about y'all's approach, about your story, about who you are as people And the way you challenge others to do that. I, i am so glad you're both here in Memphis, because you know Memphis needs that. I mean shaking it up a little bit Seriously. You know the South does, but Memphis needs it. Like you know, we have to challenge people, i think, to Explore what's really, explore what they really believe And be willing to lean into it. Thank y'all, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you for doing this podcast and for giving us this opportunity to spread our degenerate Belief. Yeah, what's the word that I want? not divisive, and it's not quite our Heretical sure.
Speaker 1:That's definitely a word I'm gonna yeah, You know we're not to the point, people are making comments yet, but they will. on this one They will.
Speaker 3:I'll probably get letters Well and I don't want to say, and I don't want to say I'm. I've been called worse. I've been called worse by people who were more devout than you like.
Speaker 1:Well man, oh gosh, well look, i think truly. I hope people. I hope people are More brave and more, have more courage and get more curious about themselves as a result of hearing. You won't, because I really do believe that's only where you're gonna get free. It's the only way I've gotten free. You just have to let it happen. You have to let it happen, you know, and, and not be so afraid of where you land and end up, but just engage the journey. Yeah, all right. So, sandra, both of you tell people where they can find you, and I want you to Share with people how they can engage with you, specifically around your coaching And, and how you can help people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you can find more information about what I do at community Spiritual health calm. It's also Sandra summers. Calm is the same website, yeah, but yeah. So what I do is I bridge secular and sacred spaces to talk about what healing looks like, usually specifically rooted in the body, so stress and trauma, what it does in the body, so that we can find more healing. So I do that in Businesses, nonprofits, education sector, and then I also do one-on-one coaching. So if you are a Christian and something was curious in here, get on my calendar and let's talk about it. It's a big part of my call to co-create healing spaces for helpers and healers, to continue to expand the Christian understanding of What it means to live this life. I love it.
Speaker 1:Sam.
Speaker 3:Um yeah, if you want to hear my sermons, you can go to a church of the river org and You can watch the live stream Sunday mornings at 11 o'clock central There. There was a podcast there. There there will be again. The podcast has died. The podcast will rise again.
Speaker 1:It is risen.
Speaker 3:It's not yet we are in. We are in the the holy Saturday of the church of the river podcast, but it it shall rise. Um, i Mean if you want to follow me on Instagram and see pictures of like. It's mostly like my kid and sneakers, but I'm and our dog and my dog, our dog, at Sam te I Eel. Uh Yeah, and you know I don't coach, but if you want to like, hang out and eat pizza.
Speaker 1:We could do that. That's awesome man. Thank y'all for being on the unlearned podcast.
Speaker 3:I went the whole time and didn't say a single bad word. That's so good, i just want to say I'm very pleased with myself. That is thank you so much for having us. This has been such a blessing. Thank you.
Speaker 1:You're welcome. This is great. Thank y'all for coming. All right, that wraps up this episode of the unlearned podcast, where we are all about gaining No. What are we all about? helping you gain the courage to change your mind in order to experience more freedom. So let's keep gaining more courage and getting more free together. Thanks for listening to the unlearned podcast. We would love to hear your comments and your feedback about the episode. Feel free to follow us on Facebook and Instagram and to let us know what you think. We're looking forward to the next time when we are able to Unlearn together to move forward towards freedom. See you then.
Listen On
