Unlearning Marriage: Twenty-Five Years of Navigating Through Finances, Challenging Family Origins, Using Strategies to Prevent Drifting, And Accumulating Wisdom Around The “Whys” of Divorce
What happens when you take two people with contrasting views on money, varying upbringing, and a sprinkle of selfishness? You get a marriage, of course! We're sitting down with Jill and Shannon Dyson, my dear friends, who have been navigating the rough seas of marriage for an impressive 25 years. They're ready to spill the beans about their adventures, the trials and tribulations, and how they've worked through their own selfish tendencies to understand each other better. They even share some fun anecdotes including how Shannon ended up being known as Jill's husband!
Money; it can make or break a marriage. Jill and Shannon share their divergent views on money and how it has shaped their relationship. We're carving out this touchy subject to explore the role of financial responsibility, the impact of differing upbringings, and how attitudes towards money can expose character. And, spoiler alert, it's not just about balancing the books, but also about balancing egos. As we navigate through these murky waters, you'll realize the importance of having honest, sometimes difficult, conversations about both spending and saving.
Marriage is a journey, and every journey has its bumps. This couldn't be truer for Jill and Shannon, who had to weather a global pandemic together. They talk about how their contrasting personalities - Jill, the extrovert, and Shannon, the introvert - came together to find balance during these challenging times. We're also touching on the fragile topic of divorce rates and the importance of staying connected to prevent drifting apart. We wrap up with them sharing practical strategies to maintain the spark in their marriage, including the incredible story of Craig Strickland and his wife.
Steer away from the same old marriage advice. Join us for an engaging conversation with a couple who've weathered 25 years of storms, sunshine, and everything in between. Learn, laugh, and, most importantly, unlearn together.
Hello everybody and welcome once again to the Unlearned Podcast. I am your host, ruth Abigail Smith, and this is the podcast that helps you to gain the courage to change your mind so you can experience more freedom. And we are in our Unlearning Marriage series, and I have two of my favorite people here, jill and Shannon Dyson. What's up? Welcome to the podcast, thank you.
Speaker 2:I thought he's one of somebody's two favorite people. Oh, one of their two.
Speaker 1:You put that number out there. Yeah, that's great, you would be number two then.
Speaker 3:Okay, thank you. So, number one, you would be number one. I am so pumped about that, thank you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Jill and Shannon, we have known each other for over 10 years. Yes, oh, that's a long time, probably 12.
Speaker 3:Probably a dozen.
Speaker 1:Probably a dozen, is that about right? Okay, so we've known each other for a dozen years and the so Jill and I are business partners. Yes, we are co-founders of an organization called Angel Street, yeah, and I think you all have heard me talk about that a little bit on here before, and so that's how we know each other and we know each other through music and all this stuff, and Shannon is the husband and that's how I know him.
Speaker 2:That's right, that's how most people know me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when it comes down to it, is that it?
Speaker 3:I am Jill's husband. Yes, I'm totally fine with that.
Speaker 2:Took a while to get there, but I'm okay.
Speaker 3:I'm good. Thanks for shifting a little bit. I've been known as the spouse of the Silver Box, maybe, maybe, right next to me, so you all have been married for this.
Speaker 1:You just had your speaking of silver.
Speaker 3:We literally did. You just had your silver anniversary 25 years we were fresh off of our anniversary trip Just last week. We got back, settled in and this is what it feels like to be married for a quarter of a century. I love it.
Speaker 1:I love it. That is great, and okay, shannon, you just said it took you a while to get used to being known as Jill's husband. Why, why?
Speaker 2:Well, at church when we were first starting our marriage, jill sang on the front line and we'd come to church, and you know I went to church just as many Sundays as Jill did, but apparently I was Jill's husband, which you know. I was completely fine with that because it allowed me after church to just head to the car while Jill would sit and socialize with all the people that wanted to talk to her. So I became okay with it, so I could just I could go to church and then get back home, which is which fits me a little bit better or a little bit easier for me.
Speaker 1:That's actually funny he likes behind the scenes, right out front. Yeah, microphone. Yeah, not so much the microphone.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I would stay for those extra services and he would head home because you know I had to be here all weekend especially back in the day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, little babies.
Speaker 1:So he had to go home and take.
Speaker 3:he had to get the kids out of the nursery and head home and yeah, we did a lot of tag team and back then Uh-huh, y'all are a great team.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you make a really good team, thank you.
Speaker 2:And I back back in those days I changed a lot of diapers.
Speaker 3:He did.
Speaker 2:I had a lot of, a lot of spit up on my ready to go to church clothes that I had to figure that out real quickly that you can't pick one of our oldest child up as soon as you put your, put his diaper and put his clothes on, because if you pick him up too quickly he will throw up all over your shirt, yeah, and so we really honestly, it was a nice accessory to all of our clothes back then Very good, so we learned to just wear more neutral colors.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:If blended a little better.
Speaker 1:That makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 3:Dark colors not so much, Not so much.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, that makes sense. So so were y'all always as good of a team. Oh, we still struggle with the team.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we don't have anything figured out.
Speaker 1:So tell me about how I mean. But you're you know, from the outside, looking in, you do make a good team. I know you still struggle, oh yeah, but what's the difference? So, like you've been married for 25 years, just talk about what, what the journey has been like of building a team in, in, in marriage.
Speaker 3:Well, we told you, we've been married for 25 years, so we did get married very young we were young, yeah, like we were five, yeah, sure. Well, yeah, so we grew up together is what we like to say. And honestly, for some reason, we have grown more together than apart. And I know a lot of people, especially when we're nearing like empty nest, and a lot of people during that time frame, kind of find themselves wondering you know, what are they going to do past kids in the home? And we just have found ourselves. We just love spending time together. You know, I mean sometimes we also can't stand spending time together when we're arguing, but so no, but we still found a way to just kind of figure it out and enjoy each other's company. So I would say I mean, we've seen so many different seasons in our marriage that yeah, I think we just understand.
Speaker 2:We understand each other better too. I think when we first we got married, really young, like Jill said, but not knowing what to expect, and then maybe bringing some things that we thought we should be doing or the other should be doing, and then realizing, well you know, maybe that's something that is a thought that I had but, not really something that actually happens. We just get to know each other better and, like she said, we still from time to time. It's just like you know, we have these selfish tendencies and that we're born with and they're hard to, they're hard to get rid of.
Speaker 3:So we still have to learn.
Speaker 2:We're still learning as we go.
Speaker 1:So what are some of the? What are some of the things like taking back to your first year of marriage, and what are some of the things that you can remember were parts of points of contention that you have learned how to work?
Speaker 3:through. I would say that when we first started out, we probably had more of our family backgrounds involved in our dynamics and it was really hard to unlearn that we could do things differently if we wanted to, and so I probably had expectations of what Shannon and I should, you know, look like as far as a marriage. I really had the expectation because I experienced a very equal balance of responsibilities and he had similar, you know background with equal responsibilities, but different roles. My parents both worked most of our childhoods and so they worked together on the home, whereas his mom full-time devoted to being mom and caretaker and home, you know manager, and so she did more of that, and his dad was more involved business-wise in working. So that looked different and so I think those, those two expectations, were a clash for me. So I had to unlearn that our role, you know we would look different, probably just based on whatever was best for our household. I remember a lot of that, just thinking, you know you have these expectations and these thoughts before marriage and child and being a parent that you just always put your foot in your mouth at the end of the day when you actually experience it for yourself Like I would never, and how in the world are they? And then you just start to loosen that grip, I think, over time, and say, well, whatever works for them is wonderful, and this is what works for us. I think you just find that balance along the way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I should have known or should have had a hint as to kind of how things would be different than maybe what I expected, when I think Jill either did, or she attempted to, or try to get something cut out of the vows in our marriage.
Speaker 1:I just stopped.
Speaker 3:I pulled the pastor aside and I was like, hey, you know that little part.
Speaker 1:I agree. No, Obey, the Obey part Wives submit or wives obey your husband.
Speaker 2:You tried to get that cut out.
Speaker 3:No, I didn't just try, I actually did you cut them out. Yeah, so you didn't say them no.
Speaker 2:I didn't say that part.
Speaker 3:We made sure that it was equal on that part.
Speaker 2:We said something different. I don't like the Obey word.
Speaker 3:Let's use a different interpretation and to this day I'm still following the message as much as I should, and I'm pretty sure they don't say Obey.
Speaker 2:So that was the first hint that.
Speaker 3:That will not be happening in my house. That's not going to work for me.
Speaker 2:Our house is not going to run like the house that I grew up in. And you know, we did not know. We were 21 years old, so really all we had to go on was what we grew up in. And so you know, when you think, well, the man has these responsibilities and the woman has these responsibilities, you realize pretty quickly that if you want to put every marriage in that box, that's not going to work. And so we, with Jill's help, figured out a better system for our house.
Speaker 1:I'm tripping on his vows thing.
Speaker 2:That is phenomenal.
Speaker 1:I did not know that.
Speaker 3:Wow, it's funny. And you know who the pastor was His grandfather.
Speaker 2:My grandfather His.
Speaker 3:Pentecostal grandfather, so I'm sure I came in that.
Speaker 2:I came in guns of blazing.
Speaker 3:I was real kind and sweet about it. Of course you were.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course they had no idea what just hit them. That is great. So you kind of shared a little bit what kind of gender roles and expectations, what, when y'all were thinking about getting married and when you knew you wanted to get married, what was in your head? What did you think it would be like?
Speaker 3:I was just really always go first, don't I?
Speaker 2:No, go ahead, but you probably want me to.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, it's fine Then it allows you to think about your response. I try not to think too much. I just say and I would say I remember the biggest discussion we were having is where are we going to get married? Because we have a really strong Catholic background and I know we need to get married in the Catholic Church, but he has tradition and family of preachers and pastors that will not be really as comfortable with that, and so that was all. We were just thinking about the mechanics of it. Did we ever talk about what life would look like? No, we were just young and rough.
Speaker 2:We really didn't. I thought about that earlier. We really didn't. No, we did not we were just thinking about okay, where are we going to get who's going to be in our wedding, when is it going to be, what church do we want to get married at, and those types of things. It was never, and we're kind of still like that. I think a little bit.
Speaker 3:We're just yeah, let's do that, we're going to be fine, we'll figure it out.
Speaker 2:We'll figure out a place to live and we're still in college, by the way. We'll work and we'll go to college and have one car and it'll be fine.
Speaker 1:We'll figure it out. Yeah, we did. Was it fine, we did.
Speaker 3:I mean it really was. It was fine I ended up. So we had a lot of struggle in the very beginning because we also grew up with different kind of financial responsibilities that we learned or didn't learn as much. Well, he played a lot of sports, so him and his discipline of sports I mean back to back competitive sports will keep you company. It will keep you completely unavailable to do a job, and all I did was work because, from babysitting to as soon as I turned 16, waiting tables and being a hostess and just being in the food industry, that's how I earned a living and I paid for literally everything I did, so I never had a credit card that parents gave me and it taught me a lot of really great financial responsibility, but also how to work really hard and hustle and get things done. And really his first job was like throughout college, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, college and my discipline was learned from sports. But that was. You know, I played sports my entire life and you know being a part of a team and practicing and going to every practice and you don't miss a practice. If you sign up you go. But as far as like money, and finances and things like that. We were night and day difference in how we grew up, I pretty much had what I wanted. If I wanted a new pair of jeans for school, we got in the car and drove up and bought a new pair of jeans for school. So I just thought, well, that's, that's what you do. And when we got married it was I'm still kind of am, but still more of a spender on on on clothing and things like that. But well, if you need it, just you know, you go and you go and you buy it.
Speaker 3:He clicks online. They all target him, they know exactly what kind of shirt he loves. I have one of every color and I'm like going to Marshall's and I'm getting the red tag you know sale and I'm like look, I got this for so cheap. And he's like yeah, but you hate it.
Speaker 2:You don't even like buying that. Buy nicer stuff, come on. But but just I think, with with that, what that causes and what that caused was not being on the same page with with money and not being on the same page with how much we're spending, which led to not one of us not knowing what we were spending and hiding spending and those types of things, because we didn't, we really weren't mature enough to take the time to get on the same page and say, look, we have a different, differing opinions about this. It's not that one is right and one is wrong. I mean, you don't need to spend more than you make, obviously, but but let's just talk about it and figure out what works for us. Yeah, we just kind of kept on leading the same lives that we had when we were younger.
Speaker 3:I think, yeah, that's so good, it's very deep and very right, yeah, and I would say that probably created a lot of those earlier challenges of figuring those things out and, like I said, growing up together, like we had to grow up, like before we could really get to where we are now. Yeah, and that took about. I don't know. I think we're still kind of mature in some ways.
Speaker 1:For sure. Yeah definitely still growing yeah.
Speaker 3:Okay, keeps us young yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean. So well, I want to talk about the money thing, because I think that's something that a lot of people underestimate. The tension around, sometimes you know why is money, why, why does it bring up so much tension?
Speaker 3:I think it's because it reveals the way you spend money, reveals a lot about your character and your background, and it's just a culmination of a lot of things you know, and it makes money, makes the world go round, all that stuff. Well, I think it really, because it is one of the biggest contributors to marriage conflict, if not the biggest it. I think it's just our grip on it and the way we behave and interact with it just reveals the differences in your personality, in your habits, in your disciplines and your the way you were raised. All of those things become really apparent when you are looking at how you're going to spend the resources that you get. You know, and I think that that's that is something that just reveals more of who you are, and that's the conflict. It's not money, money's not, you know.
Speaker 2:I think it's. I think it's like for us. I think it was fear and like fear coming in when maybe you would feel we don't have enough and we're spending too much and we have to know where every dollar is going. And then resentment from my side saying, well, don't tell me what to do with the money that I make. I make money, we make money. We should be able to do what we want. So I think it just causes those, it causes the feelings. I think of fear and resentment and being insecurities and all those things. Just because you don't feel the same way about money, I would always feel what's going to be fine. I'm going to make more money next year than I made this year and I'll make more money the following year than I make this year, so it's fine. And I think Jill is more of well, no, that's not promised to us, that doesn't happen, and it's kind of a worst-case scenario thinker. I'm kind of the glass is always full thinker and so it's going to be fine, and I think that's the issue. It's not necessarily the money, it's just the way that we each feel about it and we feel differently.
Speaker 3:Right, and it just reveals, kind of like, yeah, our differences and it reveals selfishness on both of our parts, and that is, to me, that's the biggest conflict of any marriage is selfishness, because whether it's about money or about attention, or about whatever it is that you struggle with in your marriage, I think that it just reveals the selfish nature that all of us have, and it's like a big mirror. Marriage is a mirror and all you're doing is finding more and more out about yourself and your own nature and your own tendencies, and that's what's hard.
Speaker 1:How would you? Where's your selfishness been the most apparent to you? And then Shannon same question.
Speaker 3:My feelings, entitled to my feelings, and I think what I end up doing is expecting, like God status from Shannon, which means I'm looking for Jesus and expecting him to be my savior. I mean, that's really what it comes down to and I think as a woman, we do that. We kind of want for that our mates or whatever it is that we're looking for in life. A lot of times we do it with activity. A lot of times we do it in our social status or whatever we're making our God at the time. I think I've done that throughout the years with Shannon, expecting him to be end, all be all, when only Jesus can be that person. So it already sets him up for failure. And I do know that that is probably more of my tendency over the years in my selfishness is to make him just trying to make more of a perfect model out of him, which sets him up for failure and in my, in my eyes, and also makes him probably feel that way too. By the way, I've communicated disappointment when he's not met those expectations. I think that's probably my biggest struggle. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think for me it's wanting things to always be up and fun and happy and maybe not having to deal with stuff. And so when you want to make me deal with stuff, I don't like that very much and I'd rather just think about positive stuff. And so why do we want to? Why do we need to focus on this negative stuff? Let's just, let's just live. He's like he drank and be married Live and let live and let's have a good time, and things will be better tomorrow, and so, yeah, I think that's that's that's selfish because, it's, it's, you know, we really do need to deal with certain things, or they'll keep happening again and just because I don't have that feeling about it doesn't mean that she doesn't.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's what it is, too, and that's.
Speaker 2:That's a big. That's a big thing to know and understand, especially as I'm going to give women a compliment. But, as a man, women just know how to be in relationship better than in general, and so if you just listen a little bit, that's really what I learned is I don't know, I don't know how to be a certain way, because I want happy and I want up and I want you know all these things. But I think just, yeah, listening and being like okay, I don't feel like I want to think through this difficult situation, so I'm not going to do it, right? Well, that doesn't work because Jill is a thinker and she wants to think through it, and so it is very selfish of me to say, nope, you should be like me and this should be done, and we shouldn't talk about it anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Doesn't work.
Speaker 1:So I just have to say, because we've been, we've said this forever that she and.
Speaker 3:I are very, very, very similar.
Speaker 1:And so it's crazy, as I am God, I'm the exact same one and I know she's felt it with hard conversations we've had to have.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:For work. I just don't really want to do it Like. I don't like having hard conversations, yeah, and I know like, and so that.
Speaker 3:And then I'm an over processor so I'm anxious by trait, uh-huh, and so my anxiety wants me to replay and take care of now because I can't let it fester. It was funny I was talking with his uncle over the weekend, so we went to the lake with them and he's very much wired like me, maybe even more so. Like we just were talking about how we handle things immediately. We just can't let things go. We just have, we have to call people back immediately, we have to take care of things now and I'm not nearly wired that bad, but but it's the way our wiring is, and so if our approach is more fierce and his is more laid back, it's just that it sets it up for also balance, which is good, but when there's conflict it sets it up to be kind of disastrous.
Speaker 2:Well, I think we've also, we're getting better at understanding that. So I am. I find myself taking care of things quicker and and I will see her letting go a little bit of you know some of the what I call over anxious things.
Speaker 3:Well, I think we're. We're learning where to meet in the middle.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like is it? I just know now it's not going to be all the way. You know I prefer things and I am actually okay with that. But I think meeting in the middle is more of what we have learned to kind of just kind of come together on is just figuring out a balance between the two. Yeah and yeah, I think that is true and I think both of us are very high functioning ADHD people. I think everyone in the universe right now is probably ADHD, but we genuinely come by it naturally. Yeah, just hadn't really done much with it Besides a little bit of like behavioral things for me like I'll write everything down, I have to make lists for days to make sure I stay on task for things and then he's done certain things too to really help that in recent years, and so that has made a difference. Us paying attention and taking time to nurture the things that we know have been like constant conflicts in marriage, like things that resurface all the time. I mean it would be insane for us to not address if it's something that constantly comes up and you're just doing nothing about it. Well, after a while, that's just that is going to lead in a dead end. And so when we found ourselves in, you know, moments like that, we had to go okay, what can we do to disrupt this pattern and actually get a coach to help us with that? Yeah, which, that has been a game changer, you know, it's just to have somebody help us with communication.
Speaker 1:Talk about that a little bit and the reason because, and if we tell me if you want to cut this out, but I because I think this is so profound, like like if you don't mind sharing your experience during COVID and what that 100% right and how, how, what was your marriage like then? And because I know, I know it was hard. I know you and I, jill, had all thousands of conversations just about work stuff and just how difficult you were having and all that. So how did that impact?
Speaker 3:It's relieving now to know like people talk about it a lot. The COVID like season was so difficult for extroverts. I'm a super extrovert. Shannon, as an introvert, thrived and a lot of people experienced that and we're now getting out together to talk about that. But you know, when you're behind closed doors and feeling imprisoned, that is the most miserable feeling ever. I was also coming down from years of spinning and just constant activity, so it's kind of like a perfect storm for me and that's when I had to disrupt the pattern of just negative thinking and just total anxiety and just go. Okay, I've got to go and get some like help for this. You know I knew that I wanted to be better and stronger in those areas. So I just found myself, you know, with a I call her a counselor, but it's to me it's a coach, you know just giving you the tools that you need to process and figure, unlearn, relearn. You know we've spent our marriage unlearning and relearning things, whether it's on social justice issues or marriage stuff. You know male versus female tendencies. You know we've had to really learn each other's ways, but that was a season where we had to learn each other's personalities a little bit more. I was really frustrated because I was at home all day with the kids and but he had kind of the freedom to go and work from his office because it was an isolated office. So he was gone, he had a normal routine, he had time to himself. My time to myself was nothing but anxiety and just my thoughts alone, but, you know, with no place to expel the energy I needed. You know, when you explain what an introvert versus an extrovert is, the simple question is does being around people give you energy or drain energy from you? For me it's 100% give energy. For him it's drain. You know, from the most part he can be very social too. I mean, he's not, you know, anti-social. He's just introverted. So we have found a rhythm that understands out about each other. But during COVID there was no rhythm. It was like nothing you know from the side that I needed to be filled back up to go forward. So it landed both of us in a marriage coach situation where I just needed somebody to understand what I was feeling isolated, and he would come home and just kind of want to decompress and I just wanted to be filled back up and so it was just a real big conflict for us during that time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, For me I did my schedule after maybe the first two months pretty much stayed the same, other than I would be pretty much the only person at the office instead of a couple of people at the office, and you know that was fine with me.
Speaker 3:And.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't say being in a party drains me or bringing people Half the time yes, Half the time.
Speaker 3:No, Right Depends on who the people are. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But yeah, so I think for us going and talking with someone and just sitting in front and hearing your wife say the same things that she's been saying to you at home, hearing it said in the presence of someone else, first of all, it said maybe a little bit differently, and then, secondly, you tend to understand more, and then when the counselor maybe phrases it in a different way, well, then you can really understand it. And that's, I think, for me, it just understanding that again it all comes from, I think, an innocent selfish. But that does maybe don't go together. But you don't know. Your mind is telling you I'm not doing anything wrong, like what am I doing wrong? I didn't do anything wrong. She shouldn't feel that way. Well, there you go. She shouldn't feel that way, and so that's kind of what I learned is people think and feel differently about situations and you have to have room for that and room to understand it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's good, and women just need to understand Art. Me specifically, I think a lot of women can relate to this is that need for to be understood. Oh my gosh, it's so high on my needs list. And so when you don't have to agree, agreeing is different and so it's hard for him. He thinks, by telling me he agrees, that that's understanding, and I'm like no, no, no, I just want acknowledgement that I'm not crazy. Well, I think.
Speaker 2:Andy Stanley puts it real well. He says you defer to your spouse, so I defer to her. If that's the way that she feels I'm going to defer, I'm going to. We're going to mutually submit. Yeah, right, instead of one submit to the other, we're mutually submitting to wanting each other's happiness before our own. I think that's that's the hardest thing, honestly is to put to put aside what you think you want or deserve, or I shouldn't have been talked to that way. Well, are you out for yourself to win or are you out for your partner to be happy and live there? You want, do you want what's best for them or do you want what's best for you? Yeah, and I think that's that's really. If you could do that, you'd be extremely happy.
Speaker 3:But that's like so hard to do. That's really hard. Yeah, that's number seven. His happiness versus mine, it's it's. What is the marriage? What's the win for the marriage?
Speaker 1:I think somebody told us that years ago and it's really true.
Speaker 3:I mean, I could protect my feelings and thoughts all day long, he could do the same thing, and you're never doing anything for the entity which is the marriage and the marriage is the middle piece. You know that you both have to go. Okay, what is best for this? This sacred spot? Right, not Jill, not Shannon, but like this you know, this marriage and that is the win.
Speaker 1:So that's making me think about One of my guests, the Harrington's, patrick and Shamika. They've been, they were guests, and so one thing that Shamika said was that one of the reasons that people Get divorced and some the divorce rates are so high is because we don't divorce things Before we get me get married. Oh, I like that and I love the way she put that. Like you know, you have to go through a divorce process before you get married and Otherwise you'll be trying to take things that fit you as an individual into your marriage and I'm really hold on to those things. Mm-hmm. What are there things in your, in your marriage that Maybe you wish you would have divorced earlier, about who you are that you saw. You kind of brought that expectation in and you saw some tension to what you said, jill. Like that hindered really focusing on protecting the marriage right, not just protecting Yourselves.
Speaker 3:That makes totally yeah, you want to go first. Well, I think.
Speaker 2:For me, just you know it goes back to all of the things that we Think about when you, when you're getting married, or in our case, you didn't really think about but you, you, just you saw this growing up, you saw this level of Either neglect or whatever. You saw as far as from men to women, not listening, being I'm gonna go earn a living and come home and the mill is gonna be cooked and we're gonna everything's gonna be great, because you know that's just how we do it, that's just how things are done, being able to see that it doesn't matter what you want. So if I wanted to say I'm gonna get married, I'm gonna go play golf whenever I want to, I'm gonna work all the time. I'm gonna come home I get home at 6, 30 or 7 o'clock, the house is gonna be great and there's gonna be a meal, meal on the table and, like you know, the fifth 1950s Marriage sitcom or whatever.
Speaker 3:My complete nightmare.
Speaker 2:Yes exactly, and so but understanding as like it does not matter what you want or think that you need going into a marriage. What matters is what your spouse needs and so letting go of all, of any of anything that you think that you deserve, think that you have earned, think that you need or want, going into a marriage with an open mind, saying you know, really, as a spouse to this person that I'm marrying, my job should be to make them, make them happy, make them fulfilled, make them live their best life. Yeah is me going and playing golf and working until 6 30 at night and coming home and having no responsibilities? Is that making my spouse a better person? Yeah and obviously the answer has no. But you know, as a 21 year old who you know, I didn't, I didn't know that, so wish I'd have known. You know, just to think more of less of myself and more of my spouse.
Speaker 1:That's really good. Yeah, yeah, that is good.
Speaker 3:I would say just the vulnerability of divorcing like pride or Like stubbornness. I guess you know, in an argument and and wanting so bad to be heard and understood, that you're willing to not even admit where you're weak or wrong in a situation Because you you're fighting for that win so that it won't happen again. And so you're. You live in fear of repeat. You know grief over issues that you just feel frustrated with or things that are so different, and you know you have different opinions and views and even behaviors around whatever it is. You know, I would say that just divorcing the pride to be more vulnerable and to have more communication involved in those moments, I love this seek to understand before being understood. I wish that I had learned that more so a divorcing whatever is opposite of that.
Speaker 1:No, that's good, okay. So, speaking of divorce, you all have been there for 25 years, yes, so you've known lots of couples who probably haven't made it. Yeah to 25 years.
Speaker 3:We're getting in that season, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I know couples. Yeah, I haven't made it. And yeah to 25 years and won't.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm right.
Speaker 1:What, based in your experience of people that you know or don't know or whatever. Yeah, what is it? Why? What? What's going on? Why is that? Why is it such a common reality? You know, I think I was I mean, we know the divorce rates been 50% forever, right, we know. Now, I think, that people are getting married Older, like they're waiting a little longer, right, that doesn't seem to be helping necessarily. It's still at that rate. I think I saw that the second and third marriages are actually at a higher rate, 73% divorce rate, right, so, like, what is it that you would say? Again, based on your experience, based on people you know, even people you've seen from a distance, what would be more helpful for people to unlearn before they even get into it? Based on what's happening while people are in it and they're not making it right.
Speaker 2:I think from because we have had experience with with friends and family and for whatever the reasons were that they ended up getting divorced. I think every single one you look back and, to the extent that we were involved in talking with friends and family, they believe something about the situation that is not true.
Speaker 3:It is so true I was literally was going to say the same thing, it's hard to put into words here, but you hear what they're saying to you.
Speaker 2:Well, I never really Honestly, looking back, I never really felt like this or I should have known this or whatever. But you were with that person in a different time and you saw them being together and you saw the goodness and you saw happiness and you saw these things. But at that point, when they're going through with the divorce, they believe things that are not true and you can't tell them they don't believe you, but it's like no, you don't understand because it just wasn't this way. No, it was. I was there but they have talked themselves out of it. And once they get to that point, I don't think you can come back from that really.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think that that is a later stage and what he describes is what ultimately happens. But how do couples end up there? Well, if that is not disrupted early on, which is all it is? It's just a growing apart that happens. It's a drift, it's a unintentional, but it's a negligence somewhere along the way in communication and nurturing the relationship. So, whether it's a distraction or a focus, distraction is not the problem. Why is there a distraction? What is the need? That's not being met, that's not even being talked about and worked through. You have to almost back way up and re-engineer, Like why did they get into the situation? Because in the beginning it wasn't like this. You know, there was the honeymoon phase, and then this and then that, and then, of course, there's natural challenges and conflicts and all kinds of things, circumstances that arrive. So how do you stay connected? Well, first of all, for us as believers, it's God. It is constant attention on things that you address before it becomes a problem that you stuff. It's just constant communication. I mean, everybody says that, but it's so true. You know, because we're all going to. You can't unlearn selfishness. It's in our nature, it's sin, and you can keep trying and you keep working on it, and that's probably the goal of life. But yeah, what do you?
Speaker 2:Well, I think what you find too is that and this is not all marriages, but in marriages of people that we've known that have been believers and they're Christian people, it's not one decision that happens and then they're divorced. It's a series of decisions, and sometimes it starts out with decisions that are made that are there's not necessarily anything wrong with them and you just look at it, well, that's not wrong to do, but it probably wasn't the right decision at the time to make for that person, and then you make another one, and another one, and another one, and you get so far away from making the decision that is best for you. Well, there's nothing wrong with that, or there's nothing illegal with that, or there's nothing here, so you're getting up to as close to the line as you can get, and then you look back and now you're just so far from that space, yeah that's the drift. Yeah, it's just you're drifting, and it's a series of decisions.
Speaker 3:But if you back up, why would there even be a drift? Because those same challenges could come into our lives and our marriage. But if we are in communication and we are actually watering our own grass, and working on it, then we're not free from challenges. We are going to have them and we're going to have, you know, fights, we're going to have arguments, we're going to have seasons where we're just irritated with each other. But if we don't water and continue to fight for that peace in the middle that marriage, then we're going to be just as vulnerable as someone else. And it is a drift, I would say. I remember that Craig Strickland used to say this all the time, him and his wife, of many years of marriage, their whole marriage had been a season I'm going to hopefully not botch. This was a season of falling in and out of love with each other, but just never at the same time. And so, by the grace of God, they've made it right and I'm like, oh, I wouldn't necessarily say I've fallen out of love with you, but I've definitely been really pissed off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you heard some of our arguments, do they like each other?
Speaker 3:Yeah, right, right, oh yeah. We're passionate, we're passionate. That is one thing that we said a long time ago.
Speaker 2:We argue, and if nothing will sit for long, Not at all.
Speaker 3:We will definitely argue it out, for sure, and we have to come to a conclusion. I think that I'm just stubborn enough where that's been a good thing in some circumstances, but we are getting better at the conclusion being OK.
Speaker 2:We don't agree on this. Yeah, that's good, and that's OK, and that's OK, and we have a new gesture that we do now, since we watched the show.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, do you know what we do? Oh wait, wait, wait, wait. There's a gesture.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's oh, come on, we just started. Yeah, you honestly have never seen the bear.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so good.
Speaker 2:You can't see them. But that is. I totally get it. We've already used it like three times when we were like mad at each other.
Speaker 3:We were about to start one of our little bits and he did this and I go, ok, done, and we were so much better for it. Oh, that's so good.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's really I love that. Ok, good.
Speaker 2:So anyway, it's fun to think. It's like I'm sorry. It's like I'm sorry, yeah, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:This is stupid. This says everything you know.
Speaker 1:Oh no, I. The bear is a great show yeah.
Speaker 3:If you haven't seen it, it's on Hulu. It's very stressful.
Speaker 1:I've been. Yeah, it's very, it's amazing, it's great, ok. So so, ok, I had another question, but it's lost, it's gone, no problem, all right. So I want, oh, that's what I want to do. I did want this based on what you all just said, kind of what are some practical things that you could share that you've done to help with your communication and to help you both not drift? What are the things that you've been that you've done together? Sex, excellent.
Speaker 2:Travel.
Speaker 1:Very good, ok, what.
Speaker 2:Travel and sex yeah.
Speaker 3:A lot of traveling and well sex on travel. Sorry, that is TMI, but no, I do believe that connectivity that's real, that is something he needs. And then walks are really important to me because we talk and we emotionally connect. So I've been real stickler on the past five years probably, but mainly since COVID of just my emotional intimacy needs just as much as you know he needs the physical piece and we both do.
Speaker 1:But we both need both.
Speaker 3:Honestly, it's just higher on my priority list than it is his, and vice versa, and so we've learned where to look at that for each other and try the best we can. And you know, when it's not happening either one of us get moody on it, right? Yeah, that's right, you can get really moody. I don't know. I don't know. I understand.
Speaker 2:No, but I would say too, for me, I'm not a verbal processor at all, I don't. I just that's not how I am wired, but trying to even think through and say OK, what are some things that happen today that we can talk about, because I would normally wouldn't even think of these things. but let me think of something that happened so I can talk with her about it because, if you know, she needs that and so, yeah, just trying to rewire some things of and they're good for me too. It's definitely better for me to talk about things than to not talk about. So it's not like I'm just saying, oh, whatever Jill wants, I'm going to do. No, a lot of these things are like really really good for me that I should be doing anyway. That she's helped me understand.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's good. So, advice versa, he'll tell me to just chill. You know, we can actually do that later. Jill, we don't have to do that right now. It's.
Speaker 2:OK, it's going to be just fine.
Speaker 3:So we kind of sharpen each other and it's just a matter of value and honestly, we just enjoy things together. We enjoy, you know, the Grizzlies golf.
Speaker 2:I listened to Andy Stanley podcast.
Speaker 3:Yeah, honestly.
Speaker 2:He's got on, especially on marriage stuff. Yeah, like really good, just practical stuff that you can, that you can, that you can do just by you know thinking about it. Yeah.
Speaker 3:That's good. Yeah, a lot of times we would like if we, if we have like a problem at home, we get an expert involved. We are like on a maintenance issue, because we're not maintenance people, but we'll, we'll call somebody, we'll call an expert, they'll come in. We spend so much work same for work. If I'm learning, I need to learn a skill set for my job. Oh, we work hard at finding those things out. He's an expert and what he does and he, he'll read, he'll engage. But why do we not sometimes look at our marriage, which is the most important relationship? If we are married in our entire lives, why are we not spending that same energy and effort on it? And that's when drift happens, when you're not doing that and your focus is everywhere else, but also your focus isn't upward. Yeah, that is absolutely in those seasons that we're talking about. Some from people we've experienced divorce with, those have always been at the center of it is a drift from God, you know in a small way, and just the belief of the voice of the enemy that happiness is elsewhere and the lies that Shannon talked about are not exposed. Yeah, you know, and it's just more of a dark secret of you know feelings and selfishness that just keep mounting up. Like he said, one decision at a time and but. But dispelling that in communication but also relationship with you know, with God, really does help all of those seasons. But it's easy to drift for anyone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not easy. Yeah, and I. Lastly, I would say that I have my political discussions with other people. I don't try to stress this.
Speaker 1:It does. That's that's. That's probably wise. Yeah, that's good, that's fantastic.
Speaker 3:Let's just talk about animals.
Speaker 1:Sure Reality.
Speaker 2:You know all the, all the important things, our personalities immediately flip when that happens because she just wants to hear good things, and I'm like no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1:We need to talk about this stuff.
Speaker 3:We need to talk about this, awful things that are going on right now, so it is kind of funny that our personalities completely totally flip Real life, current events, politics. I'm like no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:And, by the way, I just had that realization, so we're going to talk about that.
Speaker 3:Oh, that is a great topic. That's going to be actually good.
Speaker 2:Hello, it's going to help you understand me a little bit more.
Speaker 3:And I think I'm here for that. That's going to be great.
Speaker 1:Oh man, okay, cool, all right, so before we end. So of course I'm getting married. Yes, very soon, yes, very soon, and I would like some advice from y'all. Okay, so we're going to, if you don't mind, I would just like you to pepper spray me with things that I can that I need to unlearn? All right, so real life just kind of rapid fire like you know, back and forth. Tell what do unlearn this? All right go.
Speaker 3:Unlearn conditional love Okay that's good.
Speaker 2:Oh, unlearn conditional love, go again. I'm thinking.
Speaker 3:Okay, unlearn that dates have to be expensive. Oh, that's good.
Speaker 2:Yes, unlearn that vacations have to be expensive.
Speaker 3:Boom. Unlearn that you don't have time to date each other.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's good.
Speaker 2:Unlearn that, yeah, taking walks and spending time together is just as good as going out to eat at a fancy dinner. Maybe not as good, actually. Wait a minute. No wait, I'm going to take that back. You do need to go out to a fancy dinner Every now and then but what you're saying is take regular walks. Take regular walks.
Speaker 3:Unlearn that you shouldn't.
Speaker 2:Yes, got it. Wait, unlearn. Yeah, this is hard. Okay, I love it. This is good, this is good. This is good, this is good.
Speaker 1:All right Unlearn. I told you you're bad at that oh gosh Unlearn.
Speaker 2:Unlearn to keep your finances to yourself.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's good, yeah, yeah, yeah. Unlearn that you have to do a job together or work together at some point in your marriage.
Speaker 2:Oh, so you don't want them to do that? No, you don't. Okay, I don't think you should work together. I got you Not like on a career Remember. Yeah, we did that one time, that was not great it was not good, unlearn that what you need is not what your spouse may need.
Speaker 3:Oh, Unlearn that your husband needs to be your girlfriend.
Speaker 2:Amen.
Speaker 1:That's really good. Jill, that's really good.
Speaker 3:That's really good or Jesus?
Speaker 2:Sure Unlearn that your house should run like your house ran as your child.
Speaker 1:That's good, that's good, that's really good. Okay, can I get one more from you? Okay, yeah.
Speaker 3:Unlearn that you don't need to go to bed a little irritated with each other. Sometimes you need sleep.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's a good one. That's good, that whole thing about going to bed with the sundown and anger thing.
Speaker 1:Well, it's the whole thing.
Speaker 2:It's actually scripture y'all, but yeah, okay, he's literally, I'm kidding, I know it's context, right it's the same thing as why submit yourselves to?
Speaker 3:your husbands.
Speaker 2:If you look at it in context.
Speaker 3:Yes, sometimes you just need a little hand squeeze and just we'll talk about it tomorrow.
Speaker 2:Both of you need to submit.
Speaker 3:That's, you just get out of context. That's going to save you a lot of grief. You're welcome.
Speaker 2:I appreciate that Unlearn that you have to win an argument. Oh man, that's where we end.
Speaker 1:That's going to be rough for me.
Speaker 3:But that is good. Yeah, you just got to do it, okay.
Speaker 1:That's good, that's good man. Thank y'all.
Speaker 2:This was good, it was fun, it was a good time. Thank you.
Speaker 3:You're going to have a great, great little romantic adventure ahead and also unlearn. The first year is supposed to be real easy. Oh gosh, it's not oh yeah, yeah, it's great.
Speaker 2:It's great, it's great.
Speaker 1:No, it's going to be good. It's fine, I appreciate y'all, man. Thanks for being on the podcast.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having us. Thank you Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Absolutely All right. Well, that is another edition of the Unlearned Podcast, and if you've been listening for any amount of time, you know I have absolutely no idea how to end these things. So we will see y'all next week. Let's keep unlearning together Peace. Thank you once again for listening to the Unlearned Podcast. We would love to hear your comments and your feedback about the episode. Feel free to follow us on Facebook and Instagram and to let us know what you think. We're looking forward to the next time when we are able to unlearn together to move forward towards freedom. See you then.
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