Unlearning Religion: Breaking Free from Religious Boundaries with Pastor Vincent Joplin
What happens when a pastor embarks on a journey to unlearn religion? Join us as we explore this intriguing topic with our guest, Vincent Joplin, an assistant pastor at Hope Church who has been pastoring since 1999.
In this thought-provoking conversation, we dive into youth ministry and the life-altering power of gospel transformation. Vincent vividly recounts his time working with young people at Manassas High School in Memphis and the importance of building relationships based on the character of Christ. Our discussion further leads us to the challenges of teaching kids to unlearn religious views as they grow into adulthood, as well as the courage it takes to embrace our true selves.
As we delve deeper into Vincent's journey, we touch on topics like interfaith relationships, ministry idolization, and unlearning the Bible Belt culture. Vincent's story is a powerful reminder of the importance of empathy, trust in the Biblical text, and the transformative power of brokenness. So, come along with us on this enlightening journey of unlearning religion and discovering the true essence of faith.
Hello everybody and welcome once again to the Unlearned Podcast. I'm your host, redabby Gilles Smith, and you have entered into our series, unlearning Religion, where I get to talk to all different types of people from all different walks of life about their journey in unlearning religion, and if you haven't had a chance to really listen to any of the other ones we have out, i'm going to encourage you to do it. My hope is that it encourages you and gives you more courage to pursue your own journey, and so it's been a great series so far. We'll have a few coming out the rest of the week, and we are all about helping people gain the courage to change their mind so that they can experience more freedom, and changing your mind and religion is part of that, and so I'm really excited about talking with my guests today. Okay, yeah, so you have to understand. So if you've ever done this podcast thing, you've got to schedule folk in advance, and you know that, and so I had a scheduling conflict happen, maybe literally two days ago, and I was waking up and I said, man, what am I going to do? I really want to keep the rhythm going, and this is the only day this week I can do it. So my brother, vincent Joplin, was randomly. We were texting me. I think we were texting back and forth about something.
Speaker 2:I was celebrating the podcast with her, with Rufus, your brother.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:Not to be confused with Rufus the pastor.
Speaker 1:That's correct. Yes, rufus the son, not Rufus the pastor. And so we were texting and he had mentioned something. And then somehow we got to talking on the phone and through that I asked him, through him, to kind of share a little bit of his story. I said, hey, man, are you free over the next couple of days to come and record? And I just had a spot open up and this man said, yeah, come on, let's do it. And not only that. He said do you know some people questions? I said yeah. He said don't send me no questions, i'm telling you.
Speaker 2:So we can have fun with it. You feel me.
Speaker 1:So y'all, this is going to be a thing. So, vincent Joplin, welcome to the Unlearned Podcast.
Speaker 2:It is great to be here. That's the applause in the background. Y'all feeling Oh that's good.
Speaker 1:So Vincent is a pastor here in Memphis, tennessee. Has been pastoring for how long?
Speaker 2:As a lead pastor, whew man, so I planted a church in 2015. Prior to that, i served at goodness gracious at St Andrew Amy Church. I served at Round Oak Missionary Baptist Church in Silver Spring, maryland. So, it's been a while. It's been a while Now I'm serving at Hope Church as an assistant pastor. And it feels good not to be the lead right now.
Speaker 1:That does have to. There's some pressure on that I'm telling you. Yeah, i've been serving at the ministry for how long, how many years?
Speaker 2:Since 1999, october 1999. And I actually crazy thing I began working for Young Life and I was serving at a church, st Andrew Amy Church. So I was able to have the experience of outreach ministry, that incarnational ministry working at Menandz High School And serving at St Andrew, learning how to preach from the pulpit. So my father's ministry is Kenneth S Robinson. Now he retired, he is over the United Way Mid-South and he's enjoying that. So he gave me the opportunity to learn church ministry as well as being able to do outreach through Young Life And it kept me kept my foot in the street Because I wouldn't lose that connection with folk that were misfits like me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 2:So I feel like I was able to have both worlds. I had the best of both worlds.
Speaker 1:So those of you that are listening that aren't from Memphis Menandz is a high school here in North Memphis.
Speaker 2:North north for y'all from North Memphis, That's right.
Speaker 1:And so it is. If you're from Houston. It's similar to the life. Third ward. Come on now Fifth ward, all right. So those of you that are my hometown and your hometown, Come on now.
Speaker 2:So, man? so in Houston, man, I went to school in the fifth ward and fifth grade to Chatham Elementary Yep, And your dad told me that he went to the same elementary school which is torn down. That's crazy, and when my dad got saved, we went to a church called Willer Avenue.
Speaker 1:It's in a ward, yeah, so speaking of Willer, on the podcast that went the episode with Rufus the son. that's the church they ended up going to on Easter Will Avenue. That's amazing, isn't that crazy?
Speaker 2:So I was there when Pastor Lawson was the pastor. That's the first time I had communion and it was real wine. Come on, yeah, see, y'all ain't got nothing here, do you?
Speaker 1:I'm playing. Look at him, i'm playing. Look at him, i'm playing. Look at him, i'm playing. So I like this dichotomy between the church and the streets and how the beginnings of your ministry really were rooted in both of those areas. Talk to me a little bit about what were some of the things you even were unpacking or unlearning at that point.
Speaker 2:Man that I didn't fit in. So I moved up here from. so I went from Houston to Austin, originally born in Williamboro, new Jersey. Okay, so if I'm in New Jersey, i tell people I'm from New Jersey, from in Texas, i tell people I'm from New Jersey. From Memphis, I tell people. if I'm in Memphis, i tell people I'm from Texas. There it is. Okay. But graduated high school in Texas and I literally came to Memphis last minute decision. I supposed to go to Gremlin University and a cousin of mine flaked out on me who's going to be my roommate and decided to go to the Navy. I ended up coming to LeMoyne. My mother told me I was going to LeMoyne. I never heard of it. I came, went to school and I got saved in the dorm room. Literally I got sick and got a system of throat, almost died. I knew that my life was leaving me. I can't nobody tell me anything different And I asked God to heal me. And I believe that that moment I didn't just get healed but I also got saved and set fire on inside of me to do ministry full time. But I didn't fit in. And I knew I didn't fit in because the people around me who I was meeting in Memphis, who were involved in church man, they were so what people would call churchy. So people were dragging me to temple. Deliverance with G Patterson was alive. No knock towards that, you know at all. I just didn't fit in. And then certain Baptist churches where I stood and fit in Because for me it was I didn't. You know, i wasn't accustomed to the you know shouting or acting a certain way. I didn't have church vernacular, i was just, you know, i knew all the street per se And you know I say that loosely, but I felt like that, just this misfit who had been called like in underpaw, called a four time for y'all that know, king James, stuff right, but just didn't fit. I remember being in the dorms one time and as a young lady who went to a Baptist church around the corner, she and some other people were watching a church service on the TV in the dorm room and they cracked the joke on me And they said man, you know, vinny, because they call me Vinny, you know Vinny, he'd be just like that guy sitting in the video. He wouldn't be moving, wouldn't be shy. They were checking on, you know, checking me, because I didn't show that same emotion as they do Now. Now you know we're talking about years later. I praise, you praise with the best of them. Yeah. But I wasn't familiar with that expression in church culture. I also wasn't familiar with the double sided, the life of people acting one way in front of you and different you know behind the scenes, right. So I met a lot of people who were in church that condemned people that were like me, the misfit You give what I'm saying And it hurt, And so I feel like even my calling now is to go after the people that don't fit in. So when I meet guys that are wrestling with the salvation thing or women, i'm not trying to put them in a certain stereotypical role of church. So I'm not trying to throw you in the choir or put you at the door with some white gloves on or saying you gotta be on usherboard number two for y'all to know churchy stuff. It's like no, let's figure out where your band is And you're gifting Because you need to be in that flow and work. So if you feel like I've been rapping in the street but we're gonna get you to rapping for the Lord or something like that, but if you're an artist, let's figure out where we can still use your same gifting instead of making you fit this.
Speaker 1:What was your tension when? Because you said you got saved in 99.
Speaker 2:Well, it was a little before that started doing ministry. Started doing ministry in 99.
Speaker 1:So how long before, how long in between, when you felt like you really gave your life to the Lord and getting in the ministry?
Speaker 2:Maybe a few years. The reason I'm asking is because I'm gonna tell you where I went to church at that time. Okay, Now you wanna know now, Yeah, So I started going to this Baptist church around the corner. So when's Baptist church? shout out to pastor Paul Coleman, who's now deceased. He ended up getting cancer right, So when's Baptist church? I never heard preaching like this in my life And I remember trying to get everybody on campus who I felt was cool with me to come to this church. Man, I had a frat brother of mine who said this. He said I'll come to church with you if you come to church with me next Sunday. He kept his word, came with me. We ended up going to St Andrew, which was his church, the following Sunday. Man, I never went back to the other church. Really. And the reason I never went back is because, even though the preaching was good, i never felt connected to the people that were in there, and when I got to the other church it made me feel like a church that I was in in Texas, wow, wow. Name David Chapel in Austin, texas. Wow, and I felt kind of like I'm at home And something happened at St Andrew And that's why I was able to work out my calling Yeah.
Speaker 1:Man. So because you know, you kind of you saying you were a misfit. You know, seeing the behind the scenes in the church, like the I won't say behind the scenes, but just the hypocrisy of people within the church, it wasn't really the people in the well, it wasn't really the people who were working in the church. It was the people going to church. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know that was the thing. So, man, I met really good preachers and pastors and ministers and all that kind of stuff. So I don't condemn none of them. I don't condemn the other people as well either, But it was more the people who were the attenders Right, Who, who, man. So I would meet people who condemned me because I was a big drinker. You know, I couldn't, you couldn't beat me drinking, right, Yeah, But they would. They would condemn me for drinking or listening to rap music, but and say, other people for a smoke on weed but they have a sense for everybody. Right right, right, right right. And it's just like, and they had their pride. They didn't know how much pride they had And just how, how condemning they were, they didn't know. It's kind of like those. They had preferential sins, Mm-hmm, And they had these lists of these sins. you know, in Bible Belt, religion, like these are the sins. You know they don't have sex, you don't get pregnant, you don't do that. But then you have these other sins that are not so visible, Right, And they were. You know, they, they, they, they didn't mind doing those things. That's right, because they didn't know.
Speaker 1:When you say they didn't know what, do you mean They were acceptable, what was?
Speaker 2:acceptable That they could be arrogant and prideful right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That they could be gossips.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And people just called it conversation.
Speaker 1:Uh-huh, uh-huh. It was just part of the part of the culture of the church. That's it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was part of it was part, it was a part of Bible Belt religion Yeah, bible Belt religion, that's it, so it was not about being conformed to the image of Christ Right, it was being conformed to the image of this culture.
Speaker 1:Do you do you think I don't know, because I've only lived in the South, i, and so you? I mean you lived, you know Jersey, mary, you've lived different places. Yeah, do you do you think that the the difference of living not just in the South made you more aware of that kind of culture?
Speaker 2:Maybe so Being exposed, uh yeah, yeah, i think also. I didn't grow up in a house where my dad was a pastor. Mmm. I saw my dad get saved, mmm. He was what you call a happy drunk Mmm. So as a kid in Houston, he would take me to different clubs with him. The owners let me in the clubs and I'm sitting there playing these little flat screen Pac-Man games and Donkey Kong while he over there getting drunk. Now here, don't, don't think he's the same guy. My dad's a pastor. Now. You got to save his different guy, but he had a bad temper, mmm, and so I wasn't raised in church culture. Yeah, i was raised in a culture of they. They used to party, yeah, right, and I watched him get saved. I watched him become a deacon, i watched him become a preacher. So I got to see a transformation happen. Yeah. Versus growing up in a culture that was familiar. Yes. So yeah, I think, growing up in the East Coast and and then coming back, coming down south and then going back to the East Coast, I think that all helped shape me to see this, the differences.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know. So you, you, you, you, you. You had. You had that experience at church. Talk to me about your experience working with young people at Manassas.
Speaker 2:Oh man Raw. Yeah. Of course, them not understanding church Um, them being called unchurched, them being called um. You know outreach kids, you know they got the in reach kid. Those are terms we used to use in the outreach kids versus you know the them, you know you got those kids. So. But I think there was a a brutal honesty that I loved that they had, that I could relate to. So I'm meeting kids who were, who were game Man. I remember going in Manassas high school and I sat down on a table in the in the in the cafeteria, and this police officer came to me. It was a jerk too And it was like man, i need you to get out this table. It was just rude way He said it. And one of the kids that was a game member came up to me. He said Hey, mr Vincent, what am I going to deal with that? You know? and he was serious. I was like, nah, bruh, it's good, because they would have served dude. Yeah, you know, but just that, that raw loyalty, that grimy, you know what you see is what you get. Yeah. No gimmicks, they can. They can smell a fake, yep, you know. but I'm going to tell you what guy showed me back then and I was still working through my calling in in South Vific journey then And, man, i was leaning more on my past then to get credibility more than the image of Christ.
Speaker 1:Explain.
Speaker 2:So the credibility was man, you used to do this or you were part of that, and that being what gave you credit or that being revered you know, man And through in years. later, that to me became less priority and what became more to me was the transformation that Christ had done. Yeah. But I didn't know that early on. talk, wait, wait, i see your head move.
Speaker 1:What you thinking. No, i'm just making connections because I think that's a man, that is a. I think I think it's not working with young people. I get that you want the credit because you want them to be able to trust, you want to be able to relate, yeah, right, and but at the same time, i think the thing that we we miss I was I think I was listening to a podcast today and they were talking about just the beauty of the good news, and the good news is that Jesus is, i like, what did he say? He said Jesus is real, righteous and relevant, relevant. I think. I think that was it. But it was that relevant part, right, that really, i love that. That. You don't have to. I don't have to have experienced what you experienced in order to be relevant to you. Come on now, right, we, because the relevancy is in, is really, like you said, is in the character of Christ. Come on, people, most people, i don't care who you are, right, people want to be loved. That's it. People want to be understood. They want to be heard.
Speaker 2:Don't forget that word, love. I want to hit on something.
Speaker 1:They want to be loved Like they they are. They're starving for it And oftentimes it's it might. It might be all right getting your foot in the door with, with an individual, you know, especially with a kid, and it's like I can relate, but I think you stay there because you are, you represent something different. Yeah, it's that difference that really, you know, makes that connection.
Speaker 2:And I think what, what I saw a lot of youth workers do that was unhealthy is they ended up they they ended up getting these relationships with kids where the kid loved them. That's it.
Speaker 1:But, they didn't love Christ. That's it, come on.
Speaker 2:So the kids grew up and they never got connected truly in the church, they never really got saved, you know, because they were following this youth worker and following the relevancy of this youth workers past and credibility in a, in a, in a secular sense right Now hear me, i don't mean secular sense, in demonic- Yeah. What I mean is just a surface. This is what I've been through, but it's like, let's, let's move on. Yeah, that's right. You know so.
Speaker 1:No, Okay. So you said something I, I, I realized, maybe I don't know, And I, I grew up in church and you know, I, I would I would say that I was saved. I really my relationship with the Lord really started in college, but I, you know, I came as doing youth work in Memphis. It wasn't about I don't know three, four years into it that I realized that I, I don't think I fully embraced the gospel until I started having to talk to him about it, Because it was still I was having to talk to kids about it. You know, it's something about having to relay it in a way that's simple, that's understandable and then the way you live, right. But one of the things in that that I because I've heard that so many times what you said, is far as kids falling in love with the youth leader, come on, man, and not. And I said I never want that, i never want that, but it's so easy to get there Because that kind of attention can be intoxicating and it is something I had to unlearn, that about the gospel.
Speaker 2:And youth ministries use it to their benefit to grow ministry, to grow the ministry. And I'll say this not, i don't think, intentionally evil, no, no, no, it's not like I'm trying to get them to just love me.
Speaker 1:It's a strategy. That's it, it really is a strategy, but. But I think we have to be careful, because the strategy will grow the ministry but it won't grow the kid. That's it, and that's ultimately what it is we want, and I think it we. You know, we put kids in positions to unlearn a lot of religious stuff when we do that.
Speaker 2:You want to, why 10 years later? they hate the church, Yeah, Or they're just like man. You know they love the camp that you took them to. That's right. They, they, they care about the experience they had, That's right. But they're shallow as adults.
Speaker 1:And, and they're experiencing the same type of church environment that you were describing earlier. Right Hypocrisy. I'm, i'm, i'm this way on Sunday, i'm this way on on Monday, on on on Saturday, and they don't know how to navigate it And they don't know how to navigate it Right, and so when they're in our presence, they're okay, but when they go back home and they're experiencing that they don't have anything to stand on, and we do have to be careful about that. But I love how your experience, especially simultaneous experience There was no, my God, that's, that's, that's phenomenal.
Speaker 2:Because I'm glad I didn't have one without the other. Yeah It was, yeah it was. It was God, it was God's sovereignty. The crazy thing about St Andrew is the guy who was doing young life at the time. I kept looking at him He was the youth minister there too And I said, man, this guy looks so familiar. And he lost to a short. He used to be a member of Wheeler Avenue. Really Wow. Now I don't remember him at all as a kid. Wow. But I said, man, he looks so familiar. And he ended up telling me he lived in Houston and went to Wheeler at one time. God you know that was God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, yeah. So, um, I want to pivot a little bit. Go ahead, Because you have a very unique story In your in your, in your personal, in your personal. In your personal life that I think that we were talking about the other day on the phone and um, which really kind of sparked me to be like man. I think this would be an incredible example of what, what, what, what the risks are of unlearning religion and and what kind of courage it takes to do that. And I would love for you to share that story and um and just kind of talk about your like, talk about, talk about what it took to get you to that point.
Speaker 2:So a lot of things happened in college. Yeah, i was dating a young lady man who I loved. She was a Sunni Muslim And here I am a Christian. Yeah, You know trying to figure out how that's going to work. My brother, um, married her friend, who's a Sunni Muslim, right? Hmm, uh, it's crazy story, the young ladies who I, who I, was dating. Her father is the e-ma'am of the mosque to this day to this day, right? So I had a philosophy teacher who's a deceased pastor. I asked him about the relationship Do you think this can work? He said he thought it could work if we honored each other's religions and was respectful. That great guy Love them. Well then, i have my father in the ministry at St Andrew, kenneth Robinson, and Reverend Merrill, his wife, who was like it can't work because you're unequally young. I took their advice and I broke up with her. It was hard. Yeah. I do think that they were right, because it would have been so many tensions and I want to worship with my spouse, you know, but just those type of journeys. But it has given me such an an empathy for people of other religions and I can talk to anybody from anywhere, no matter what your faith is, because I can still honor your dignity in the road you're on.
Speaker 1:So you said you know, you ultimately went with your spiritual, you know father. In that regard, Dr Robinson, What was it? no-transcript, I mean, I assume you didn't just do it because he said it Yeah, go ahead. What was it in you that ultimately made that decision? Why did you do it?
Speaker 2:Man, without being deep, I think it was that I trusted them and there was something in me that already knew it couldn't work. I was trying to make it work. Yeah, yeah, you know. Yeah, i think, not knowing like I know now, i chose God over her.
Speaker 1:Do you feel like you weren't choosing God before?
Speaker 2:I don't know. I was too immature in my faith to know.
Speaker 1:Come on. You were too immature in your faith to know.
Speaker 2:And I had good people to pull on. Yeah, yeah yeah. So on one side I had the really, really, really smart pastor who was teaching logic who said yeah, it can work if you all do this. Right. And then I had the spiritual parents, who were intelligent as well, said it can't work. They didn't wanna violate the biblical text and the instruction that we placed our faith, hope and trust in Right, right, really in Christ. But this written word like do we trust this. And I trusted that Again, it hurt, But ultimately it proved to be the best way.
Speaker 1:All right, let me ask you this If you were in Dr Robertson's shoes, somebody came to you and had the same dilemma, how would you unpack why to them? And let's say that they had the maturity to really have an in-depth conversation, what would you? what would that conversation go? I mean, how would that conversation go? You know what I'm saying. Like I wanna marry this person. we're two different religions. they're committed to their religion, i'm committed to mine, but we love each other. we respect each other. Sometimes we visit each other's houses of worship. We don't have a problem. We don't ever argue about religion. Explain to me what is the problem.
Speaker 2:One day you all are gonna have tension about the things that may not be as visible right now. So one day, what if it comes up, your Jesus is not the son of God, but you believe your Jesus is? How are you all gonna navigate that conversation? Because if you love the God that you serve and believe that God came in the flesh, according to John 114, but then you have this Muslim woman who says no, that's sacrilegious, that is evil, are you gonna let your faith go? And then, if you bring kids into the scene birth kids or adopted kids they're gonna have to choose and they're gonna be confused, and you don't wanna bring another human in this world and confuse them. And I think that we owe it to our God, who we put our faith in, to not confuse other individuals. We got enough confused folk as it is. So I took again loving God over loving what I want to do, and it still hurt.
Speaker 1:Where else in your life have you done that Chose?
Speaker 2:loving God.
Speaker 1:Over something that you loved.
Speaker 2:Man, i think, letting go of the performance. So I found out in 2011, 12, that I was in love with the performance of ministry. I was in love with the performance of ministry Hear me, man. So things were. I didn't know that. I didn't know how much I loved ministry, more than I loved Christ. Again, these are different. This is working out my own salvation. I wasn't less saved. I was just growing in the sanctification process. So I remember some guys. we were really great friends and we were tight And Laura said something to me one time and we're no longer tight, me and one of the guys or two of the guys. we're very cordial now But those relationships were kind of severed through some situations, right, and she mentioned to me. she said she felt like I was cleaving to them And then another friend of mine felt like I was. I had made them an idol. I had made kind of like their words or their advice superior in my life. When those of the relationships were severed, it's like all I had was Christ to depend on. And through that time with the Lord, i got to see man, what I was putting my faith in that, my ability to preach, my ability to do ministry, where my identity was, in my ability to preach, my ability to do ministry right, and it was just like dang. my love for God wasn't that strong or that big. It was loving what I was doing, not who I was supposed to be.
Speaker 1:All right. So I want to dig in a little bit there, because you are a great preacher, i've heard you, you're a great communicator. I'm gonna tell you what changed in it. I want to know, because I've been doing ministry for a while and not in the same way that you do, but been doing it And that performance is it's like a drug And it it it when you because when you're on, it feels great, right, and it's like man I'm on, like that feels, it just feels good and you like being in that space. How do you begin to separate that? Because it's not necessarily a bad. That's your gift. It's not a bad thing. You being on, you doing your thing, you performing at a high level is a good thing. It draws people, it does what it's supposed to do. But loving it and worshiping it right, idolizing it in those different ways, how? I want to know? I want to know how did you, how did you grow out of that? And I also want to know I know, let's stay there, all right.
Speaker 2:Cool How I grew out of it. My love for people increased And my love for myself, or what I was getting from it, decreased. Okay. All right, and God did that. Okay, god, through brokenness, you know. And it was just like, and even in my preparation for preaching, my preparation for preaching, it shortened per se or became less stressful Because, man, i was talking to a pastor associate about how my preaching was man centered, man being humanity, and it was all about the person, them getting their fix, them feeling good or this, that, the other, and then it became Christ centered, and it became Christ centered the more my love for people grew and for Christ grew, and that took away the exhaustion And that took away the pressure to perform. So so now when I'm on stage, there's not that dopamine high for me There was a God. will you please?
Speaker 1:What, what, what. what is? what is the moment that you would, you would say, or a moment where you realize you started to love people more?
Speaker 2:That I started to love them more. Man, i think, being around I'll drop these names people like a soup Campbell He's a guy here in Memphis that really ended the disciple and pouring in the man. And again this was around the 2011, 12 times. So I ended up leaving St Andrew. That helped as well, because there was a point I love St Andrew, okay, but there was a point that I said, man, i need to leave the stage and get back out in the street. And someone had told me about Agape, child and Family Services. All this was happening together And I said, man, i just need to, i just need to get off the stage. Now I didn't stop preaching, i just didn't want to be, i didn't want to be employed at the church Right, right, right, just church period And I started going to fellowship in Memphis And so I was able to sit and worship with my family and work at this nonprofit ministry. But so I think part of that was worshiping with my family and saying, oh my gosh, what is this like? I've been coming to church doing ministry work, but I ain't been worshiping. You know what I mean? I didn't know that I had to because I was in that traditional mode, which is not a totally bad thing. So there were different things that were happening. So resigning from my position at St Andrew, taking the position at Agape, getting back in the street, kind of like doing that ministry stuff, being in church on Sunday and being fed, being around certain men in a discipleship group where they're pointing to me, i'm pointing to them, caring about things other than the stage, so all that was happening. And so your love for people increases, not to performance. I know there was a lot.
Speaker 1:There was a lot That was that's yeah.
Speaker 2:It was all working together.
Speaker 1:What about so? connect that to your personal journey when it comes to you know again this unlearning of your religion, your faith, walk right. Connect all of that. What was happening inside of Vincent?
Speaker 2:Man getting more character of Christ, being humbled man, not having to be seen in a room. So TJ says something I'm paraphrasing about not having to shine until the light's on you, so I don't have to be, i don't have to have any spotlight on me. Yeah. All right, it's like no, when it's when it's time you do your thing but I can just chill, so just all these different things were happening, man building other people just my joy shifted. Wow, You know and that was nothing but a supernatural thing. I remember I took this sabbatical, as I was saying, andrew, and I read this book, pivotal point, secrets of the Vine. I had the book for years because it came after the prayer of Jebes, never read it, didn't care about reading it. Man, when I read that book on that sabbatical, about being pruned, it broke me And I'm just, you know, kind of remember more than as I'm talking to you. So it was just those different instances When God showed me how I idolized the voice of these men that broke me. You know, just different. There were these different moments when I was able to worship with my family and fellowship Man that broke me. There's all these different experiences were happening.
Speaker 1:What's the value of being broken on this unlearning journey?
Speaker 2:Man. you get to become self-aware, you get to learn who you are, you become more secure in Christ. I remember having a young man ask me in bentry apartments in Waverly. I was walking doing some outreach ministry stuff with a guy but man, miss, why you always smiling, i said because I don't have to frown no more. I was talking about basically when I was a kid or had to be hard, or even when I was working with young life work with those hard kids. You had to win that right to be hard. you know like, act like you're hard so you can win them over and all that kind of specialty gang kids. Yeah for sure. And I said, man, I got an approval. My strength was in Christ.
Speaker 1:Man, I loved it. I loved it.
Speaker 2:So, even now, like man, i know who I am. Yeah, swip pants and all suit, man, i told somebody listen. Man, you put me on stage with a suit on a collar, on sweatpants on, though nothing changed. You know I don't have to change my voice, man, i know what I'm going. I know nothing. There's no the performance. So what I mean by performance now is the act. Yeah, that's right. You know, and not so much as I was acting, but the act is gone, yeah. Yeah, what you get. There's a freedom in that Dang right, and that's what happened to me. I got free, come on And I started. I was liberated And it started show. I started, i started showing me like, oh, i started adopting the Bible Belt culture that I was so disgusted with.
Speaker 1:How did that show up?
Speaker 2:In being different people in different places. So I had, i had my church, vincent. I had my quote unquote young life, vincent. I had my alpha, alpha, alpha fraternity, vincent. Wow, you get that. Yeah, now I'm the same person everywhere. Everywhere, don't matter.
Speaker 1:Man, that's huge, Because I think that we talk about identity a lot. I think you know that feeling of needing to belong will put you in a position where you, like, I feel like I gotta be this way over here, be this way over here, be this way. And what I'm hearing you say is, at some point you realized you belong to Christ, the whole you, So the whole you can show up anywhere.
Speaker 2:Come on, and it helps me now walk with young adults, especially young men, who are trying to figure out, well, what is sin, well, what isn't sin, what are my freedoms? What can I do? What can I do? Yeah, because Bible Belt culture will tell you a whole lot of list of things you can and can't do. You know you can't have no drink, man, you can't do that. You know you can't listen to rap music No, you can't do that. Or you know you can't wear that. You know you need to wear a black suit on Sunday. You know what I mean Different things. You know. Well, have all these lists. Yes, that are nothing that you can find in text. Right. And I'm big on learning freedoms, but not flaunting them in a way that are offensive.
Speaker 1:I want you to tell us how to unlearn the Bible Belt culture.
Speaker 2:Risk trial and error, doing things that may embarrass you, finding a good mentor and figuring out man, am I crazy? You know? can I do this Not violating your conscience?
Speaker 1:Ooh, that's good Talk about that.
Speaker 2:So there might be things that you feel like you know I want to do this, but I'm going to go back to drinking Because it's so prevalent in Bible Belt culture. That's a big thing people condemn, right. So I don't have an issue with alcohol, but I do think it's unwise to drink certain places. I do think it's unwise to drink too much And I think that with my freedom to participate in alcohol, i don't want to flaunt my freedom in a way that hurts a weaker believer. So this weaker believer may say, hey, i have alcoholism in my family, so drinking offends them. Well, i'm not going to say, well, because I'm free to drink, i'm going to drink in front of you. No, no, no, no, i don't have to flaunt my freedom So I can withhold from having a glass of alcohol in front of them because I care. I love my brother or sister more than I love my freedom. I don't ever have to have this freedom again. I don't have to ever participate in it again because I love my brother or sister more. But it's a trial and error thing. So I'm not against going to quote, unquote the club Now. I'm not saying I'm going to go right Because it might hurt my weaker brother or sister Or it could hurt the institution that I'm connected to. But in that freedom I don't condemn my brother or sister, who do go. So you might have musicians that play in a club on Bill Street on the weekend, but they show enough save And they play on Sunday at church. Let them do it. That's their freedom And with that freedom there's a grace on their life to do it. Guess what. That grace ain't on me. And? but it comes to trial and error. Sometimes you go and you find I don't need to be here, or I don't need to be here in Memphis, but I can be here in the Bahamas. There you go, it's a trial, you just learn And then sometimes you just you can't let people dictate what you do and don't do. Now here's some other things. Do my freedoms? you have to take it through this filter. Do my freedoms hurt me? Do my freedoms hurt other people? Yeah, think about that stuff. And do my freedoms cause me to go further away from worshiping the Lord? Like, does my participation in this freedom may start taking up more space in my life And I start giving little time to the Lord And that just takes time to really think about those things. That's why you can replay this podcast.
Speaker 1:Well, I love that. You said it takes time. I think that we put a lot of pressure on people to figure it out pretty quickly, Especially when you say, OK, you saved. Ok, it's all right Now that you saved. boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, And it's like we want people to conform to this particular way of life. Our image Right, our image, and we don't give people the room to figure it out.
Speaker 2:And that's where the grace comes in. And I think I've seen condemnation on both sides. So the person who's free to do this, who's a Christian, will condemn the person who's not free. Well, you know you can do that. And then the person who said, nah, you can't do that, condemns the person who's free. Why can't we love both brother and sister across the aisle?
Speaker 1:And not require you to have my freedoms and me to have yours.
Speaker 2:Here's the problem with the Galatian Church. You had this small group of Jews who were condemning the Gentile converts because of their freedom, Because they were like they're going to mess around and get back to their old pagan lifestyle without letting them work out their faith. You're messing up their worship environment because you want them to be good, religious Jews.
Speaker 1:What is always so. personally, it's funny you kind of leaned in on the alcohol. I did not grow up in a church environment where alcohol was condemned, but I went to a church in college where it was very much like we don't drink And I began to adopt that. So I tell people what it is. I drank up until I was 21 and then I stopped after 21. And I stopped for about four years because I was following somebody else's conviction And not mine. I was not. And I loved what you said about pay attention to your conscience, and what was interesting to me was my conscience was never. It was never about drinking. It was always about who are you following Like who are you following? Am I following people? Am I following a church culture? Am I following what I believe God happens to allow in my life? And not condemning my friends, a lot of whom don't drink even to this day, and not feeling like we all have to be on the same page. And I had to learn that, but it took me.
Speaker 2:There's unity in the diversities of our freedoms.
Speaker 1:There really is And we can learn from each other, because what I also had to learn was I had to be comfortable being who I was and not hiding it. I hid that from my friends for years, that I started back drinking because I didn't want them to see me a certain way. Right My closest friends, and that's a problem. I'm still idolizing people, and so I think this process of unlearning we got to give people the room to do that.
Speaker 2:And it takes courage, Gosh it does It takes personal courage. What I didn't tell you, or tell the listeners as well, is in that college time I went through a condemnation period where I became the person condemning folk And I was just like, hey man, to this day I regret it. I regret it And some of those people to this day they love me to death Because they know I'm not the same person. But I went through this. You can't do that. You can't do that. I don't go to clubs, no more. I don't do this, i don't do that, and I'm just like because I'm trying to figure out who I was. It was wrestling through identity. That's right, Man. That's why I think it's so important to walk with people while they're going through this journey, Because I felt like for so long I was doing it alone until God connected me to different men who basically walked with me.
Speaker 1:What are some traits in some people? If people are out there like man, i need some help walking through this. I do need mentors. I do need some people that are a little further along the journey. What are some healthy traits in those people? Because sometimes you can get connected to the wrong types of folks in this journey. So what are some traits that's important?
Speaker 2:Man, I think them asking questions, they might not say it this way, But helping you figure out if your life glorifies God, whatever that means. So my best friend now, that's all we're on is hey, man, that is glorify God. Not nice, that kind of like trick question, but man does doing this or not doing this glorify the Lord, i'm gonna ask you to define, glorify man Make Christ big. I'm gonna still unpack this some more. Does it take away from Christ? Does it draw Christ? does it draw people to Christ or does it push them away? So that's what I mean by glorify God. So again, here goes my freedom. Does me drinking in that particular environment glorify God, lead people to Christ or push them farther away? That's what I'm, you know. So if I know that, hey, this particular behavior is not accepted in this part of The country under the Mason-Dixon line, then I'll just withhold from doing that there, yeah. But I know I can do it, say, in Maine right, or in Boston right you know something. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Oh, it totally makes sense. Well, okay, so I would imagine there's some people listening that might be like we're just.
Speaker 2:We're just using this for an example, you know critical right.
Speaker 1:So you, because what you just said like. So you saying I like no, hypocritical is saying I don't do that.
Speaker 2:Okay, i'm critical of saying that's not, that's not my life. No Maturity says I don't have to there Because I care more about how this will affect their soul. Yeah, then, how it affects my happiness.
Speaker 1:You, you. I like what you said earlier I love people more than I love my freedom come on and. I think that's. That is maturity, right, that is a mark of maturity.
Speaker 2:Let me use guns.
Speaker 1:Come on.
Speaker 2:I am a licensed gun carrier. Yeah, my, i have taken my daughter to the range. I own a, ours. Do you hear me? I'm in the South. I believe in the guns. Yeah, There are some people who have been victims of gun violence. I do not flaunt my freedom to carry Because I don't want to hurt them, offend them, because they have been victims of gun violence. So I'm not gonna go around saying what y'all to be able to make, this amendment ought to be approved and other Because, because I have this freedom, yeah, no, no, i love them more Because I know they've been hurt by people who abused it.
Speaker 1:So, it makes sense it only makes perfect sense. I, i, i Love you to unpack something, and you didn't necessarily phrase it like this, but it reminded me of a conversation I had with a friend the other day of the difference sometimes, or how sometimes We asked the wrong questions Hmm, is something right or is something wise? What is that? what in the context of your faith, in the context of how you live out, what the practice of your faith right out in public? Is it right or is it wise? Do you find that those? what I find, let me say like this what I find is, sometimes we don't. We ask is it right or wrong? Yeah, and that's it. It's right or wrong, black and white. What I, what I've discovered, you know and I, is that there are probably more things that are not black and white. Most things are great, come on. So, the question being is it right or is it wise, and how do you make the distinction?
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm Man I goes back to, i think, hurting people, mm-hmm. So it's like in, in, in, building up Christ's name. Yeah because I think there's a lot of gray areas And I think there's a tension there that we need to figure out how to navigate right. I think people want White, black, right wrong. Because it's easy, yeah, but man, it takes work to manage in the gray area, because you know what that means. I gotta care about you. That's right. I gotta get to know you. Yeah, i gotta get to know my heart. I have to figure out Is this something that I should be doing, or is this something I've just been repeating because it's been cultural?
Speaker 1:You gotta ask questions, that's it you gotta ask yourself questions as questions of other people. You gotta ask questions You maybe haven't asked yourself before. Yes, which?
Speaker 2:can be scary, and that means you gotta have relationships with people who don't think like you. Come on, i got great friends who, who are man, love the same gender, yeah right. I got friends who smoke lots of weed, yeah. I got friends who man eat lots of edibles. Got friend man Friends that do all kinds of different things, right, but they think different and they live in different parts of the country Where certain things are sin. Come on now. Come on, depending on the part of the country or world you live in. Yeah right. Yeah. So some people might look at you know Trinidad, tobago, and so all my guys had a dress. This sin is evil, right? right, they might go to the bush. Oh, that's evil, right, you know, it's just like man. No, you can't impose your context on that. Context and culture, questions and loving people all that has to come into play man.
Speaker 1:Um, This has been.
Speaker 2:I hope y'all Don't wait, a fight at all. We've been talking about all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 1:I well, they might not. I'm at five. No, this has been good. I have one last question for you. Um, i love for you to. How would you encourage someone who is needing to Engage a journey of unlearning Religion and whatever context that might be, because they're like man, i'm listening to this or I've been thinking about some things and It's. There's some things that have been ingrained in me, some habits that I have, some things I've been taught that no longer serve me, that I'm wrestling with, but I'm a little I'm scared to Leave this place because it's so comfortable, right? how do? how do I unlearn that? What? how would you encourage somebody to go on that journey? to start it?
Speaker 2:man I don't know if they're gonna like this pray. I Would really say, man, pray, ask God. My time on churchie language is a little. It help me Find somebody or them find me to walk me through this journey Practically. I have a book that I would suggest. Okay, man, brian the Ritz, okay, wrote a book years ago called saving the saved Whoo, and it talked about basically unlearning, performance and things like that. It's a great book. Saving the saved because he noticed when he moved to Memphis To plant this church called fellowship, how people who thought they were saved Needed to get saved. Wow, wow, wow, saving the same saving the same by Brian the Ritz. Brian the Ritz shout out to Brian the Ritz This is not a plug, he wasn't, he wouldn't ask me to do this No, but a great book and it walks through just Matthew and religious culture. Mmm. Now, when you read the book, be careful that you don't start building resentment towards, maybe, a upbringing that you had, or Bitterness towards a church or anything like that. Just let it work in your heart.
Speaker 1:That's good. That's good man. Vincent, reverend pastor I Joplin, thank you for being here, thank you for sharing, thank you for being vulnerable, thank you for being honest. It really is my hope that your, your wisdom, your story, your experiences really encourages someone to Take some inventory and say I think I need to, i think I need to go on this journey, i think I need to start unpacking some things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they need to learn that.
Speaker 1:Unlearn that, they need to unlearn that, and with that, we are going to see you next week. Keep going on the journey. In order to be more free, check us out on the unlearned podcast. We're dropping these every week and we will see y'all next time. Peace. Thank you once again for listening to the unlearned podcast. We would love to hear your comments and your feedback about the episode. Feel free to follow us on Facebook and Instagram and to let us know what you think. We're looking forward to the next time when we are able to Unlearn together to move forward towards freedom. See you then.
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